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Old 06-20-2008, 11:00 PM   #16
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tile on tile?


Nestor,

I totally understand your point. At no point have I said it cannot be done. I am stating that over the internet I cannot see nor judge what the situation is. I take nothing away from the abilities or spirit of any DIYer. I would feel it's inappropriate of me to give advice to someone who may not be familiar with the circumstances of making that decision. In this case, I have to assume most people would not be able to make that judgment call without further information. It is not a cut and dry situation. Just because tile is still adhered does NOT mean it was installed correctly. I feel if someone really wants to follow through with the procedure, they have heard from someone who installs tile for a living that it is not the preferred way to install tile....although it is possible. Now, on their own, they can search for the precautions and procedures to move forward. I do not want to spend the time talking about something I myself would not do. Make sense? If I were hired to do this job, I would do it only under the stipulation that the original tile was removed. Simply because it's the only way I can guarantee the new installation.

So you want MY reason for not thinking it's a good idea to tile over tile? I'll answer that with a question of my own. Can you be 100% sure the original tile was installed correctly? Unless I installed the tile myself, my answer to that question is "no". Plain and simple.

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Old 06-21-2008, 11:06 AM   #17
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Tile over tile can be, and is being, done all the time. Of course there are (or should be) qualifying factors for the original installation. If the original install is stable and satisfactory that's all one can hope for in most cases.

Scuffing the surface of the old tile is a plus. The use of unmodified thinset (dryset) mixed with a separate additive would produce a stronger bond (in a thinset) than using a modified thinset off the shelf would normally do.

I'm not going to argue the specific qualities of individual thinsets, I'm talking in general terms.

Even the TCNA allows tile over tile under the right circumstances so poo-poohing the idea is a matter of personal preference.

Can it be done?

ABSOLUTELY!
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:23 AM   #18
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I don't think there's really a debate on whether or not it can be done. Across the board, I believe everyone agrees that it can be and it's an accepted practice under the right circumstances.

However, are you going to recommend it to someone asking you if it can over the internet?

So now that the debate about IF is over, anyone that wants to give the OP advice on what and how to do it, have at it. I'm steering clear.

Good luck.
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:32 AM   #19
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tile on tile?


Angus242:

I guess the point I wanted to make the loudest is not whether it's best to tile over tile. I think every DIY'er would recognize that there would be issues with tiling over tile that wouldn't arise if he/she were tiling over new tile backer board, so there'd have to be consideration given to those other issues.

The point I wanted to make the loudest is that what people come in here for, and indeed what we come in here for is not just the asking of simple questions and the giving of one word answers, but an explanation of the WHY's and WHEREFORE's behind those answers. I, for one, find it darn near impossible to learn anything by the rote memorization of facts. Once I understand the underlying principles, then everything falls into place, much like a tool, that I simply use to determine the answer.

Now that some knowledgable people have hashed through the issues, all the newbies in here have also learned the principles and know that it's not just sufficient strength and rigidity that's needed in a good tiling substrate, but dimensional stability as well. THAT is so much easier to understand and remember.

Kudos for sharing your knowledge in here. But, if you had the extra time, wouldn't it be great to also explain the whys and wherefores behind the answers you give.

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 06-21-2008 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:46 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
Kudos for sharing your knowledge in here. But, if you had the extra time, wouldn't it be great to also explain the whys and wherefores behind the answers you give.
No extra time needed. I have explained multiple times already. Because I couldn't be 100% certain the original tile was installed properly, I would pull it out.
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Old 06-21-2008, 01:05 PM   #21
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Anyone that gets advice from an online forum assumes all the responsibility of applying that advice to their own situation. These forums are ripe with idiots that really know nothing but just want to post SOMETHING on an Internet forum. No one knows who any of us are or what true credentials we may have.

Those of us that do this regularly in an effort to help DIY's and save them from themselves in some cases do so for absolutely no compensation what-so-ever from the forums. Hell, we don't even get a "Thank You" or a "We're glad your here" from the guys that are reaping all the rewards.

Some DIY's are thankful some are demanding some are just plain stupid and will never get it. Most post the identical question on every forum they can find not realizing that there is only a handful of guys and gals that answer questions with some real experience behind them but in some cases use different handles on different forums to disguise who they are. It's the same people everywhere!!!

For someone like Nestor to come along and expect everyone here to write an entire book in response to a brief question is a suggestion that has not been thought out thoroughly enough. That idea is not even reasonable. Many of us here will stick it out when a DIY'er continues to chain questions endlessly. BUT, they have to want to know the answers and be interested enough to pursue their own line of questioning, and we have to be sure we aren't replicating other threads simultaneously. That is a waste of every-one's time.

The bottom line is...You get what you pay for. The cost of admission in places like this is a whole lot less than going to a big box and buying a superficial book that doesn't offer any personalized service what so ever. And a lot of bad advice. The truth is...most of the information coming from places like this is coming from seasoned pros and is up to the minute for the industry...but we still get little respect from some and some go a little further and want everything explained in detail while they themselves are contributing nothing.

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Kudos for sharing your knowledge in here. But, if you had the extra time, wouldn't it be great to also explain the whys and wherefores behind the answers you give.
NO!
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Old 06-21-2008, 01:57 PM   #22
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Well that was kinda my point. My reasons for volunteering my opinions here are my own. I don't need to thoroughly explain my every comment. If I did, this would become a job and I already have one of those.
Now, if we're talking about THIS thread....the OP asked if you could tile over tile. I said yes but I wouldn't recommend it. They replied with a "thanks". As far as I was concerned, thread over. Then a debate started on whether or not it's possible to tile over tile. I didn't remember anyone saying it COULDN'T be done so I'm not sure why the debate continued. If we stay within the context of this thread, the OP never asked any further questions (to which I would have replied) nor did they offer ANY information about this particular situation. What kind of tile? Is it a basement? Is it over wood framing? Is it a bathroom? Is it an exterior location? If over wood, was there enough structure to begin with? What's the deflection rating? How were the original tiles adhered?

Get MY point?

I feel I volunteered enough information to make the OP happy. If I didn't, they have every right to ask for further opinions. It's no big trade secret us "pros" are trying to hide about tiling over tile. ANYONE with a few clicks on Google could find out the THEORY about tiling over tile. As for the individual situation that determines whether it's feasible or not, THAT'S what should be discussed. The OP didn't ask. Done.
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Old 06-21-2008, 02:24 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
Kudos for sharing your knowledge in here. But, if you had the extra time, wouldn't it be great to also explain the whys and wherefores behind the answers you give.
NO!
Well, I for one will continue to explain the thinking behind my answers. I took typing as an elective in high school and I type about 40 words per minute, so it doesn't take me long.

I believe that people appreciate not only the knowledge, but the understanding. They're not willing to pay one extra red cent for it, but that's the nature of lots of fine people. I get nothing for spending the extra time, but it's a productive way to waste my spare time. Also, I'm kinda new here, and it's ALWAYS a hassle coming to a new forum because all the regular "experts" don't know if I know what I talking about until I prove it. So, posting a longer response that explains the background information allows me to prove it without direct confrontation. That way, I don't find myself the focus of an insult barrage from the head honcho if I disagree with something he/she posts.

Bud Cline: People that are confident in their knowledge and understanding will most frequently post under their own names, or shortened versions of them. The information we give is free and maybe that's what it's worth, but I for one want to get what little credit there is to be gotten for myself, and not for some non-existant entity known as #qxzv# or something. And, I've posted on quite a few DIY forums on the net, so I find that sometimes people will know me when I start posting on a new forum.

Anyhow, nice to meet you guys.

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 06-21-2008 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 06-21-2008, 10:07 PM   #24
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I've enjoyed this thread. It has been educational. Nestor, I am brand new to this forum too. I jumped right in and so far nobody has yelled out, "you know nothing idiot."

Although I have been here a week, I can tell that Bud and Angus are good guys that know their stuff, way more than I. (I might beat them on carpet subjects though )

I hurriedly chose my user name, I never realized how much anamosity (spelling) there is to HD though.

I still recommend a call to California to the techs at Custom building products. Very helpful and I know they won't shoot you down for tile over tile.

I agree with adding your own admix to an unmodified t'set is better than fortified t'set. But if not use Flexbond.

Last edited by HomeDepot23; 06-21-2008 at 10:08 PM. Reason: english
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:43 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeDepot23 View Post
I've enjoyed this thread. It has been educational. Nestor, I am brand new to this forum too. I jumped right in and so far nobody has yelled out, "you know nothing idiot."
Hi again, HomeDepot23. It's the educational aspect that I think is lacking in a lot of DIY forums. I personally like knowing why things work the way they do, but I can appreciate that others might not care.
I also believe that most newbies would prefer to know the why as well as the what, when and how.

Quote:
Although I have been here a week, I can tell that Bud and Angus are good guys that know their stuff, way more than I. (I might beat them on carpet subjects though )
I understand them to be good people too. I too, will be fielding some of the questions on carpet. You'll see how I do.

Quote:
I hurriedly chose my user name, I never realized how much anamosity (spelling) there is to HD though.
When I first saw your user name, I figure you either work at Home Depot or are highly enthusiastic about Home Depot. I too have noticed an Anti-Orange sentiment in some of the posts on this site so far.

Quote:
I still recommend a call to California to the techs at Custom building products. Very helpful and I know they won't shoot you down for tile over tile.
For the more technical questions, you might want to ask for Frank Mascias at extension 159. He's their chemist. I've talked to him several times when I couldn't get along with their customer service people.

Quote:
I agree with adding your own admix to an unmodified t'set is better than fortified t'set. But if not use Flexbond.
Truth is, I've set more than my fair share of wall tiles, but have yet to set my first floor tile. Ask me about wall tiling.

Nice to meet you too, HomeDepot23.

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 06-21-2008 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 06-22-2008, 12:08 AM   #26
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Quote:
Nestor: "So, if it wuz me trying to make a sticky thin set mortar, I'd throw the warranty to the wind and add anyone's latex additive for thin sets to anyone else's polymer modified thin set. If a small sample of it mixed up OK, hardened up OK and stuck OK, then I'd use it, warranty or not."
Now SEE!!!! That right there is a sign of someone giving advice that has no idea what the hell he is talking about. That's the kind of thing that gets unknowing DIYers in trouble and they don't deserve that type of bogus information.

To add additional additives to already modified thinset can wreck the intended chemistry of the product and in turn cause an installation failure.

NEVER MODIFY ALREADY MODIFIED THINSET.

Quote:
HD23: "I hurriedly chose my user name, I never realized how much anamosity (spelling) there is to HD though."
Now that you brought it up.....

Home Depot is notorious ( as are all the major home centers) for their workers giving out really bad information. Very few of them are in fact the experts that the companies portray them as being. A lot of them were super-sizing meal deals a week before they began work there.

I have seen hundreds of cases where one of those apron-ed experts gave someone advice and a job failed or they sold them the wrong products and created a catastrophe for the DIYer. Maybe you should consider contacting the Webmaster here and changing that User Name to something a little more less offending.


Quote:
Nestor: "It's the educational aspect that I think is lacking in a lot of DIY forums. I personally like knowing why things work the way they do, but I can appreciate that others might not care."
The truth is...the same questions are asked over and over and over again and have been answered in detail over and over and over again. This has been going on for ten years. You late-comers don't realize this I guess! If those making the inquiry would spend some time searching they would find (as you would) all the answers in detail and would learn a great deal more in the process. But people are generally lazy and want special attention from the git-go.

Having said that - keep in mind that no two jobs are exactly alike. It is at that point that special attention is required and we are all glad to participate at that time. Considering what it costs to get the information I see nothing wrong with expecting a DIYer to do a little research on their own before they use a lot of our time asking questions that have already been asked and answered a million times.

If you stay around you will one day understand this and grow weary of the repetitive nature of these forums.

Last edited by Bud Cline; 06-22-2008 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 06-22-2008, 12:12 AM   #27
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I did my own wall tiles. I royally screwed it up. But somehow it came out kind of rustic and the Mrs Loves it. When I showed her how it was supposed to turn out, she said she would have hated it that way.

She's an oddball, hates conventional stuff, or she just was trying to make me feel better.
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Old 06-22-2008, 09:07 AM   #28
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Bud: You said:

Now SEE!!!! That right there is a sign of someone giving advice that has no idea what the hell he is talking about. That's the kind of thing that gets unknowing DIYers in trouble and they don't deserve that type of bogus information.

To add additional additives to already modified thinset can wreck the intended chemistry of the product and in turn cause an installation failure.

NEVER MODIFY ALREADY MODIFIED THINSET.

I fully understand that you're not supposed to modify anything for fear of having a problem, but...

My forte is paint, and fortunately understanding how latex paints form films also provides a lot of insight as to how other slurries (like latex additives) "cure". (Truth is they don't really cure chemically, there's a physical transformation that takes place.)

All those white latex additives will be milk white in the jug, but dry clear. There's only one way that can happen, and that is through the film formation process that also occurs in latex paints. Lemme explain it, and you will see why I can have confidence that one latex additive is compatable with another even though the ONLY thing I know about them is that they're both a milky white colour in the jug, but both dry clear.
We all learn in these forums, and now it's your turn. (round smileyface).

A latex paint is a mixture of solid CLEAR PLASTIC particles (called resins) and clear, white or coloured particles (called pigments) all suspended in a solution. That solution contains a water soluble solvent called a "coalescing solvent" dissolved in water.

When you spread the wet paint on the wall, the first thing that happens is that the water evaporates. As that happens, the clear plastic resins find themselves surrounded by that water soluble solvent at ever increasing concentration. As the concentration rises...

Hang on, I have to go somewhere and will continue this explanation when I return.

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Old 06-22-2008, 01:08 PM   #29
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Sorry, back now.

So, as the water in the paint evaporates, the solid, hard, clear plastic resins find themselves surrounded by that coalescing solvent solution at a steadily increasing concentration.

That coalescing solvent will "dissolve" (kinda) the plastic that the resins are made of, making them get very soft and sticky. It is during this phase of film formation that the paint film actually adheres to the substrate, but the purpose of the coalescing solvent is far more important than just adhesion. Surface tension and capillary pressure then cause those soft sticky resins to coalesce and stick to one another. Those forces are strong enough, and the resins now soft enough, to cause the resins to deform so that if you could see into that paint film at the coalescing resins it would look like the interior of soap bubble foam where the planes between resins are FLAT surfaces, and each resin has as many such "facets" as it has neighbouring resins. As the coalescing solvent then evaporates from the paint film and leaves that "newly painted smell" behind in the room, the now continuous SOLID plastic film becomes hard and rigid again.

NOW, something happened to change the colour of the paint during that process. Initially, there were all kinds of clear plastic blobs in the paint (the resins) and all the water/plastic phase boundaries would have reflected and refracted light, thereby creating what amounts to a giant bingo machine for photons of different frequencies (colour), and your eye sees a mixture of all colours as the colour "white". When you mix the colour white with any other colour, the result is a lighter version of that same colour. Thus, the paint was artificially a whitened colour when it was in the can, but when the phase boundaries in the wet paint are eliminated, the white discolouration disappears and you see the true colour of the paint.

EXACTLY THE SAME THING HAPPENS in every slurry or emulsion which is white in the jug and dries clear. It is the solid/liquid or liquid/liquid phase boundaries that causes the slurry or emulsion to appear white to begin with, and the elimination of those phase boundaries during the film formation or curing process that causes that white discolouration to disappear.

NOW, if two latex additives are both white in the jug, and both dry clear, AND if you mix the two together and that white liquid dries clear, then you know that they are compatable. The coalescing solvent in the one will soften the resins in the other sufficiently to cause those resins to be soft enough to allow the forces of surface tension and capillary pressure to deform the resins sufficiently so that you have complete elimination of all the void in the solid film. Because, if there were any voids in that film, you would have a air/plastic phase boundaries inside that film, and no matter how tiny they were, they would still reflect and refract light, giving the film a milky white appearance.

This is why I said: "So, if it wuz me trying to make a sticky thin set mortar, I'd throw the warranty to the wind and add anyone's latex additive for thin sets to anyone else's polymer modified thin set. If a small sample of it mixed up OK, hardened up OK and stuck OK, then I'd use it, warranty or not."

Because if anything was interfering with the process by which these slurries or emulsions "cure" (physically transform), then the resins wouldn't get as soft and sticky as they need to to coalesce properly, and so you wouldn't get:

a) as good adhesion to the substrate (cuz the resins wouldn't have gotten as soft and sticky during coalescence), and

b) proper coalescence of the different resins to each other, resulting in it drying to a powdery solid instead of a cohesive solid, and

c) discolouration of the thin set because of the existance of tiny voids in the plastic component of the slurry. The result would be that the thin set would have a whitish appearance because of the reflection and refraction of light at every phase boundary surrounding every void.

So, if two latex additives dry to a clear solid when mixed together, then both coalescing solvents worked properly on the other kind of resin so they're compatable.

If a polymer modified thin set mixes up and appears to work as intended
with a different latex additive, then the two are also compatable enough to be used together. Otherwise you'd get a whitish powdery substance formed that doesn't stick to the substrate well.

PS: The reason why paint darkens as it dries is NOT the same as why your blue jeans are darker when they're wet. That involves a different principle of optics. But, it's an "optical illusion", nonetheless.

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Old 06-22-2008, 02:20 PM   #30
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I'm not going to read all that stuff but maybe you should stay with giving advice on paint and not tile which you have little knowledge of.

Quote:
Nestor:
"I fully understand that you're not supposed to modify anything for fear of having a problem, but...

My forte is paint, and fortunately understanding how latex paints form films also provides a lot of insight as to how other slurries (like latex additives) "cure". (Truth is they don't really cure chemically, there's a physical transformation that takes place.)"
At this point you are "preaching to the choir". Obviously you intend to write endless comments and that's your choice but frankly until the questions are asked - no one really cares how much you think you know. Why not save it for a day when a novice comes along that needs that information?

P.S. 40 WPM isn't that impressive, I do that with two fingers. Now if it were 70 WPM then you'd have a noteable talent.

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