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Old 05-18-2008, 11:54 AM   #16
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Subfloor, YES OR NO?


Hello all...
So I should tear up my existing (garbage) hardwood floor? And lay down What exactlly for a sub floor???
Do you NEED to? No. Should you? Yes. A quality grade plywood of 3/4" if you remove the hardwood. If you don't remove the hardwood, then thinner would be fine. T&G screwed with construction adhesive and leave 1/8" spacing on your seams.

My house was built in the 20's(wife corrected me on that last night) and with that in mind I have 2X6 joists.
How far are the joists spaced? If you can, measure from the center of one to the center of the other. Also, what is the longest unsupported span of the joists? If you have access to underneath, measure from whatever one side of the joist rests on to whatever the next support for that joist is. Typically, you have one end over the foundation of the house to the center of the house...with an opposing beam (sometimes steel) run the length of the house.

From what im reading ditra is a plastic type membrane? How is this installed over the subfloor??? Nailed, stapled, floating? And what do I need to use for tile adheasive?
Very important to follow these instructions. If you do, it will be an install that lasts!
http://www.schluter.com/5793.aspx
also, find your application to see the procedure in this PDF:
http://www.schluter.com/media/brochu...ra_us_2007.pdf

I have seen things in the local HOME DEPOT, LOWES that have a raised checker board plastic thing that is susposed to be good for tile work?
I don't believe so. If it's the stuff I'm thinking of, that's not for tiling over. Does it look SIMILAR to this pic (minus the wood)?

If so, no. That's not for tiling over. Stick with Ditra. It's available at Home Depot.

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Old 05-18-2008, 01:49 PM   #17
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Subfloor, YES OR NO?


Yes, no matter what you put down rip up the old hardwood.

You will more than likely when that's off still have to add on another layer of plywood to 'beef' up the strength of the floor. One layer of plywood on the joists is not sufficient to lay tile on. We like to see a total of about 1-1/4 - 1-1/2" total thickness in ply between the two layers, so add appropriately according to what thickness is on there right now.

Ditra is a membrane that has a waffle texture (raised and lowered sections), you mortar this down with a trowel using a polymer modified mortar, then you install your tiles ontop of that with an UNmodified mortar. It takes the place of either Cement board/ mesh & cement/ or another 5/8" plywood for support under your tiles. If you choose not to go with Ditra as a HO I would use cement board as your second choice over m&c (although m&c is superior to cement board it is harder to put down and needs some skill) and plywood as your last option.
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Old 05-19-2008, 08:55 AM   #18
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Subfloor, YES OR NO?


Quote:
dochorn: Yes, no matter what you put down rip up the old hardwood.
The more I looked at my floor, the more disguisted I got!! So the teardown has begun. I will be adding 3/4" plywood to my existing 1" plankboad sub floor. Everything will be screwed into the joists.

Quote:
angus242:
How far are the joists spaced? If you can, measure from the center of one to the center of the other. Also, what is the longest unsupported span of the joists? If you have access to underneath, measure from whatever one side of the joist rests on to whatever the next support for that joist is. Typically, you have one end over the foundation of the house to the center of the house...with an opposing beam (sometimes steel) run the length of the house.
The joists are spaced around 15"-16". The width of the room is approx 14' wide, and about 20' long. the joists run the 14' length to the center of the house.

Quote:
Very important to follow these instructions. If you do, it will be an install that lasts!
http://www.schluter.com/5793.aspx
also, find your application to see the procedure in this PDF:
http://www.schluter.com/media/brochu...ra_us_2007.pdf
Yes!! this is the stuff I have seen on tv!!!! And you are correct the stuff I have seen attatched to plywood is not the same stuff!!!!

Those links were very helpful.
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Old 05-19-2008, 09:56 AM   #19
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Subfloor, YES OR NO?


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Originally Posted by Dynamic View Post
The joists are spaced around 15"-16". The width of the room is approx 14' wide, and about 20' long. the joists run the 14' length to the center of the house.
So you're saying they are 2x6 joists, spaced 16" OC with a 14' unsupported span? Wow. If that's correct, you have a very unfavorable condition for laying tile. Those stats give you an approximate deflection rating of L/159. The minimum you should have for a tiled floor is L/360 (higher numbers are better).
I hate to be the barer of bad news but I would not tile your floor under those conditions. Since there is so much "bounce" in your floor, there is a very good chance that tile would delaminate (unstick), crack or you'll have grout failure.
Is there something you can do? Sure. Just adding plywood on top of the planks will not be enough. You'd have to add support from below. Maybe laminating new 2x8s or 2x10s under the area to be tiled. Or you could sister the joists which will help but I think you'd need to do it substantially. I'm not expert in it so I can't really say how much you'd have to do in order to beef the support up.

Angus
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:39 AM   #20
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Subfloor, YES OR NO?


Quote:
So you're saying they are 2x6 joists, spaced 16" OC with a 14' unsupported span? Wow. If that's correct, you have a very unfavorable condition for laying tile. Those stats give you an approximate deflection rating of L/159. The minimum you should have for a tiled floor is L/360 (higher numbers are better).
I hate to be the barer of bad news but I would not tile your floor under those conditions. Since there is so much "bounce" in your floor, there is a very good chance that tile would delaminate (unstick), crack or you'll have grout failure.
Is there something you can do? Sure. Just adding plywood on top of the planks will not be enough. You'd have to add support from below. Maybe laminating new 2x8s or 2x10s under the area to be tiled. Or you could sister the joists which will help but I think you'd need to do it substantially. I'm not expert in it so I can't really say how much you'd have to do in order to beef the support up.

Angus
I had a feeling their might be too much deflection. While I had the ceiling open I added cross bracing (2x6's) to the ceiling/second level floor. This made a huge difference in the bounce in the floor. I know this will not solve my problem on the first floor.

I guess I will be looking into hardwoods. I WILL NOT put down linoleum!!!!!
While at my local home center, I noticed they have some prefinished hardwood floors. That might be an option!!
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:09 AM   #21
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Subfloor, YES OR NO?


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Originally Posted by Dynamic View Post
I noticed they have some prefinished hardwood floors. That might be an option!!
The biggest difference in prefinished to sand/stain is that when done, prefinished has seams or grooves that allow dirt, debris and even water between the hardwood. When you do a (proper) sand/stain, the entire floor gets sealed. Something to think about. Prefinished in a living room or bedroom would be fine, not so sure about it in room like a kitchen.
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Old 05-28-2008, 03:16 PM   #22
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Subfloor, YES OR NO?


Dynamic-

I cringe at the response i may get for this... but here it goes. I also have a vintage 1920s or so house with tongue and groove floors. Actually, the house is so darn old, there is NO subfloor, the tongue and groove is finished floor. But I digress. My floor is sort of "bouncy" too. I played with several different ideas... and then <gulp> found some vinyl tile that worked great for my bathroom and kitchen. Now, before I get flamed by all, please appreciate that there is actually some pretty decent looking vinyl tile available today. I dont mean the peel-and-stick crap, but the stuff you actually glue down (and then i borrowed a weighted roller to level it all. And installed nice saddle transitions stained to match my wood floors.) I think it sometimes gets overlooked in forums like this, because it is definitely not a high end solution. However, most visitors to my house think it is ceramic until they actually walk on it (it has slight "give," which I actually appreciate when on my feet for a while in the kitchen) and i have had folks actually get on their hands and knees to look, thinking it was ceramic. It looks much nicer than linoleum.

Now, it won't fool any pro, as the grout lines are unmistakeably missing. But it looks good, is holding up great, and shrugged off the cast iron frypan I dropped on it. It's been on my floor for over four years, and I have zero issues with it. My house, even after it was leveled, has a slight "wavyness" in the floors, not totally fixable by sanding, etc, and that vinyl installed right over it with no issues, was easy to install, is not lifting, etc.

Now, it sounds as if you may be doing a higher-end remodel... but if you have a vintage cottage farmhouse like mine, it may be worth looking into.

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Last edited by krankykitty; 05-28-2008 at 03:18 PM. Reason: spelling
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