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Old 06-10-2010, 11:18 PM   #31
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Subfloor thickness


Quote:
Originally Posted by ingeborgdot View Post
Any your point is?
Ingeborgdot,
If you put the time into reading through many threads on this site (and on johnbridge.com), you'll learn a lot of valuable information, some of which does not directly apply to your immediate situation but which may alert you to relevant things down the road. Another thing you will realize is that Jazman and Bud Cline know their stuff where tiling is concerned (spending time reading many threads will help you figure out who really knows their stuff vs. who is somewhat knowledgeable, but isn't quite at expert level). While there are places where experts may do things differently, they still worry about fundamentals.

You might get away with certain things, but that may depend on whether you did things like orient the subfloor and underlayment plywood to get the highest strength, built up the strength of your joists, etc. It's up to you to decide whether you want to risk ripping up a floor with popped-up tiles in a few years.

Your underlayment should not be screwed to the joists - fasten it only to the subfloor (I used ring shank nails long enough to just barely go through both layers).

When you get to the electric radiant heat, research that process well and follow the manufacturer's instruction and others' advice carefully. It seems (based on what I read) quite easy to accidentally cut a wire in the process of installing it - in the end, I decided it was more of a headache than I wanted to deal with.


Last edited by lazzlazz; 06-10-2010 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 06-10-2010, 11:21 PM   #32
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Subfloor thickness


Tiles direct over plywood is doable in a light duty, residential dry area, but it is not a very good installation method. High failure rate, and I don't mean a total failure necessarily, but grout cracks are likely.

Thin set under plywood underlayment is almost insane. You will not find that recommendation anywhere that I know of.

Without re-reading this thread again, I recommend tiling over either a cement backer properly installed into thin set per specific directions, or my favorite which is installing Ditra.

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Old 06-10-2010, 11:21 PM   #33
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Subfloor thickness


So what are you trying to tell me? That is what I would like to know????
Are you saying that I should go with 3/4, 1/2, wire, ditra and then tile? Would you please explain to me what you would recommend as Tia did? Please don't leave anything out. Thanks.
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Old 06-10-2010, 11:40 PM   #34
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Subfloor thickness


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Originally Posted by JazMan View Post
The Flooringgirl says..... "My best tile installer would say to use 1/2" exterior grade plywood, radiant heat, then tile. He hasn't had a failure in 40 years, so take it or leave it!"

And...... "Both mortar and screw the plywood to the base floor."

Oh boy.......

Jaz
Apparently, my expertise in the floor covering field is not appreciated here. Darn, since I was turned on to this site by someone from another flooring forum who seemed to think it was a good place for me. Tell me to bow out of your circle, that's fine. I probably do have enough on my plate already anyway.

The sad thing is that you haven't even considered the value of my opinions. My family is 32 years in floor covering retail and installation, my grandma was an international architect, and my mom is a color expert. Don't you think that makes me well-qualified to talk about floor covering?

What is wrong with mortar and screw? Or with exterior grade plywood and no failures?

Tia
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Old 06-11-2010, 12:00 AM   #35
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Subfloor thickness


OK, re-read the thread again. Sounds like you did a good job with the joists.

So, you installed the 3/4" ply subfloor over the joists right? You removed the 1/2" right? OK good. A single 3/4" meets and exceeds minimum specs for a subfloor in a basic ceramic or porcelain installation using either a cement backer or Ditra. It's always good to add a layer of plywood underlayment if you want to and have the room to do so. Plywood adds strength between the joists, cement backers add little or nothing, they just give you a tile friendly surface.

So, decide if you're gonna add some more plywood, then install the warming wires or mat per directions, then Ditra etc. If you decide to install a cement backer instead of Ditra, install the heat over the board.

I'm gonna assume you know how to install the plywood underlayment, Ditra etc. If not sure please ax.

Jaz
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Old 06-11-2010, 12:32 AM   #36
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Subfloor thickness


Tia,

The professional tile setters here try to give info that follows proven methods as outlined in The Tile Council of North America Handbook. We also recommend always following the instructions supplied by the manufacturer of each product.

I have a disagreement with a few things you have suggested. And if my memory serves me correctly there are other suggestions from older posts I take issue with. It's just too much work to respond to every post.

I hate to "correct" everything I disagree with, since while I believe I am right, it's possible to do things wrong or to minimum standards and still have a successful installation. We just need to recommend methods that have been proven to work by many tile setters and over a long period of time.

You will not find the recommendation to install plywood underlayment into fresh thin set mortar anywhere. Heck, plywood underlayment shouldn't even be glued to the subfloor just fastened to the subfloor.

I hate to hurt your feelings but, what your family knows has nothing to do with what you can do. Anyway, most architects do not have a clue about the proper installation of tiles, that is why they hire consultants as needed. They also hire consultants in HVAC, plumbing, electrical and several other specialties.

As for retail flooring stores, there are very few that install much ceramic tiles since they can not be competitive with independent tile setters. And let me add that I don't know of a professional tile setter that believes setting direct over plywood is the right way to do things. Those people are usually referred to as hacks.

Jaz
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Old 06-11-2010, 07:44 AM   #37
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Subfloor thickness


Just curious as to why (every time) someone is called-out on some advice they have given that isn't industry-approved the next thing they do is post up their resume? What's that all about? That's happened three times here in just the past ten days.

Quote:
My family is 32 years in floor covering retail and installation, my grandma was an international architect, and my mom is a color expert. Don't you think that makes me well-qualified to talk about floor covering?
No, apparently not so much. Sorry.
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Old 06-11-2010, 08:17 AM   #38
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Subfloor thickness


Ok, the one thing I did wrong was glue the plywood to the joists. I thought that was a good thing.
Yes, I will put 1/2 on top. I wish 3/8 would be acceptable but I think 1/2 should still give me enough room.
From the wire on up, how much height should that take up? Any idea? I am planning on using ditra which is what you recommend right?

Last edited by ingeborgdot; 06-11-2010 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 06-11-2010, 08:57 AM   #39
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Subfloor thickness


No no, you did it right. You're supposed to glue the subfloor to the joists, it's any underlayment that isn't glue to the subfloor, but just fastened to the subfloor. Make sure to use screws that are just a bit longer than the total of the sub & new underlayment being installed. In other words, do not fasten the underlayment into the joists.

3/8" is acceptable, but 1/2" adds much more strength and you'll save 1/8" by using Ditra.

The wire should add about 1/8". ( I don't know what brand you've got ). Ditra adds 1/8" total. Then your tiles should be 3/8-1/2". So about 7/8 - 1" total.

Jaz
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Old 06-11-2010, 09:16 AM   #40
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Subfloor thickness


Ok, great.
The wire is from
http://www.warmzone.com/
I am using the 1/8" wire from them.

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