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Old 02-07-2013, 08:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
I've ordered the 23/32" ADVANTECH
Good move.

I use Ditra, but CIS is a very good product too. Can you easily get either?

Jaz

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Old 02-07-2013, 08:41 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan

Good move.

I use Ditra, but CIS is a very good product too. Can you easily get either?

Jaz
I have to order both.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:50 PM   #18
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That's a pain. Where abouts are you located? zip code will do.

Jaz
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan
That's a pain. Where abouts are you located? zip code will do.

Jaz
Stamford, ct. 06903

I should note that one advantage for NobleSeal is that I'll be setting in mosaic diamonds every few tiles. Those mosaics do not conform to Ditra specs.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:44 PM   #20
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Ditra should be available to you at HD and Lowes. They carry the small rolls of 54 sq. ft. You may also find a retail store that will cut you less? How much do you need? If it matters I could send you some if you can't find any near you.

CIS i a very fine product and comes from right here in Michigan. Matter of fact Eric, (nic E3) is sometimes heard from here and at JB's place. I think they sell it direct and cut what you need. I don't use it cuz it's not promoted well and it costs too much.

Jaz
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:58 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan
Ditra should be available to you at HD and Lowes. They carry the small rolls of 54 sq. ft. You may also find a retail store that will cut you less? How much do you need? If it matters I could send you some if you can't find any near you.

CIS i a very fine product and comes from right here in Michigan. Matter of fact Eric, (nic E3) is sometimes heard from here and at JB's place. I think they sell it direct and cut what you need. I don't use it cuz it's not promoted well and it costs too much.

Jaz
My Home Depot doesn't carry either. Even Daltile doesn't carry it. I used the NobleSeal in the powder room. I was planning on using Ditra but the tile is basket weave mosaic. Out of Spec for Ditra. I have no complaints with NobleSeal.

I need about 150 squares. I can order online if needed.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:06 PM   #22
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OK, order online then. I'm surprised they don't have Ditra there.

If the reluctance is because one of the pieces of tile in the mosaic is less than 2", there's ways to get around that. Just fill all the squares with thinset and go back and install the tiles the next day. Some people, (not me) do this with all their installations, for some reason.

Jaz
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:17 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan
OK, order online then. I'm surprised they don't have Ditra there.

If the reluctance is because one of the pieces of tile in the mosaic is less than 2", there's ways to get around that. Just fill all the squares with thinset and go back and install the tiles the next day. Some people, (not me) do this with all their installations, for some reason.

Jaz
Yep. That is how I would handle it if I go with Ditra.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:57 AM   #24
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What is it about Ditra that you prefer over the NobleSeal? Is it cost, performance, ease of use?

As noted above, I've installed the NobleSeal in the powder room. I found it a bit of a pain to lay into the mortar but that is probably a newbie problem. Too much mortar and probably a bit too thick. Does require a roller for best install.

But all good in the end. I also worried about the constant fuzzing on the outside while working on it but that is probably of no concern. In the end, I'm satisfied, but of course, only time will tell if it is any good.

I can go either way on this although I do like the fact that NobleSeal is thinner so I can keep the height down and I don't have to worry about the mosaic work around. I didn't realize the NobleSeal is more expensive. I've not priced it out yet but I'm not all that price sensitive.

Also, since I'm not going with 2 layers of flooring, is one better than the other for single layer flooring? As noted earlier, this will be set directly on the ADVANTECH. I know I've seen comments from Eric where he'd rather see 2 layers of flooring with NobleSeal but the same is probably true for Ditra.

Thanks again for all your help.

Louis
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:39 PM   #25
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In some ways CIS is better than Ditra, and I'm sure Eric would agree. CIS allows you to bridge over expansion & control joints in concrete and not continue the expansion joints in the tilework. That's a big benefit. But I do/did very few installations on concrete, and even then 95% of the people out there will not pay the cost of a membrane. If you explain the right way to do things, they think you're trying to get into their wallet. OK, pay me later then.

I also don't like the idea of rolling CIS, reminds me when I was a helper to a sheet vinyl mechanic. I'm not gonna carry a 75lb. lino roller just to install this membrane a few times a year. Ditra is a great product, easy to install and easier for me to get. I buy full rolls and use it instead of concrete board. Better for the clients in many ways, easier for me, about the same cost to the client, but it does cost me more and also takes more time to install the tiles over it. More thinset too etc. (huh? Why do I do it then?)

I'm glad you're not cost sensitive. CBU's cost about .60-75 a ft. Ditra sells for about $1.55, (list was over $2 in '09) and people think it's too high at $1.55. Based on my cost for CIS, I'd wanna sell it for about $3. That's kinda hard to do to a retail customer. Plus our local distributor won't stock it. So I just avoid it.

CIS is more suited to large commercial projects where professionals are involved in the selection of products and methods. Someone writes a spec and it has to be done that way.

As far as deflection goes, the industry max deflection is L360 for both joists and subfloor, and both companies agree with that.

Jaz
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Last edited by JazMan; 02-08-2013 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:16 PM   #26
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Jaz,

The cost difference between Ditra and NobleSeal is of little consequence for me - $50 to $60. Just because this is a DIY project doesn't mean I'm doing the work myself to save money. That is a popular misperception about DIYers.

I do it myself for two reasons, 1) it is done the way I want it done, and 2) I enjoy the work and take pleasure in the outcome. Point 2 is the most important. If I save money in the process, that's a nice benefit but not the driver. More likely I spend what ever I might save on new tools! I am a bit of a tool whore.

In any case, it sounds like the choice here is a matter of personal preference. NobleSeal will cost me a little bit more and takes more effort to bed properly but performance should be equivalent. Also, I don't have to do anything special for the mosaic and I keep the height where I want it.

Thanks again for your input.

Louis
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:09 PM   #27
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Jaz,

I've just about concluded to go with the Ditra.

First, I've not gotten comfortable with the specification provided by NobleSeal for using CIS directly on OSB whereas it is specified as an acceptable substrate by Schluter for Ditra. NobleSeal technical support (after a conversation with Eric) said it would be okay provided I used the EXT adhesive. But here is the rub, my space is about 120 square feet. A 1 gallon bucket of EXT is probably not going to make it for 120 sqs. While I'm not price sensitive I hate the idea of not using half of what I buy. I'd have to buy the extra gallon to be sure I had enough on hand.

Finally, I've concluded that even with the NobleSeal I'm likely to not have an even transition to my oak flooring, still requiring me to create a transition piece at each passage. So, I'm just going to go with the Ditra and be done with it.

Louis
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:15 PM   #28
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One other thing, what size trowel would you use? This is 12 x 12 porcelain. I will use one of the leveling systems to minimize lippage. I understand this generally requires the use of a large notch for more grout. I was planning on using either a

Gundlach No. 680(notch) Versablade Trowel Blade Notch
U448 - U Notch 1/4 x 1/2 x 1/4

or

Gundlach No. 680(notch) Versablade Trowel Blade Notch
U446 - U Notch 1/4 x 3/8 x 1/4

What do you think?

Thanks again!

Louis
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:24 PM   #29
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Louis,

The 1/4x3/8x1/4 is my standard for 12-14" tiles of standard thickness. You should set a few, then remove them to check for transfer. It's alsp a good idea to back-butter the tiles.

I assume you know the proper consistency of the thinset, how to properly spread and set the tiles.

Jaz
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:47 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan
Louis,

The 1/4x3/8x1/4 is my standard for 12-14" tiles of standard thickness. You should set a few, then remove them to check for transfer. It's alsp a good idea to back-butter the tiles.

I assume you know the proper consistency of the thinset, how to properly spread and set the tiles.

Jaz
I'm assuming proper consistency is what the mortar manufacturer specifies. I think I have the rest down having completed the powder room successfully but always open to suggestions.

Louis

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