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Old 12-26-2008, 10:28 PM   #1
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re: new ceramic floor in basement


Hello

I have read some threads on floor removal methods for vinyl tile with asbestos and mastic adhesive. I am looking for
a solution for the following issue.

The area is in a basement bathroom in a definately high moisture area. After safe removal of vinyl asbestos tile from the concrete floor using a a non friable method of removal, The adhisive will be removed using achemical method.
I have read that a safe method after the tile removal is to put some modified thinset on top of the layer to "seal in" any traces of the mastic adhesive.

I wish to put down new ceramic tile as a replacement for the vinyl and replace the ceramic tiles on the walls as well.(see attached drawing details below), as the drywall is staring to warp

I wish to use the Ditra product as part of the solution to this renovation, if i can.

So the question is...

Is it possible to use a unmodified thinset layer on top of a modified thinset layer? (Reason being that the modified was suggested on top of the concrete (with trace amounts of adhesive still there), but unmodified is required for the Ditra application.) (see attached detail)

Can anyone think of an alternative detail method than the one outlined here?

side note... What is the difference between Mapei ultrafelx 1, 2 and 3. I can't find a definitive answer for this.

Any other suggestions? Thankyou in advance.
please excuse the picture quality, (hard to compress to 100kb)

-gramps416
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re: new ceramic floor in basement-la-bathroom-web1-detail.jpg   re: new ceramic floor in basement-la-bathroom-detail2-web.jpg   re: new ceramic floor in basement-lar-bathroom-detail3web.jpg  

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Old 12-27-2008, 01:33 AM   #2
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re: new ceramic floor in basement


Quote:
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The adhisive will be removed using achemical method.
Nope. You shouldn't thinset over adhesive that's been chemically removed. I'd look into removing the adhesive with a scarifying procedure.

I'll leave the rest of the questions until you've decided on what to do with the adhesive.

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Old 12-27-2008, 10:07 AM   #3
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re: new ceramic floor in basement


Quote:
Originally Posted by angus242 View Post
Nope. You shouldn't thinset over adhesive that's been chemically removed. I'd look into removing the adhesive with a scarifying procedure.
what exactly is a scarfing procedure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by angus242 View Post
I'll leave the rest of the questions until you've decided on what to do with the adhesive.
I have decided what to do, remove all that i can into the same bag as the tiles and bring it to a special collection centre here in toronto. The point is, that even if i remove the adhesive, my understand is there will still be trace amounts stuck in to concrete which i cannot remove.
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Old 12-27-2008, 11:16 AM   #4
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re: new ceramic floor in basement


This is scarifying:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaN6j...eature=related

Although, that guy is using a HUGE machine. I personally own a small, hand-held version:
http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-1773AK-C.../dp/B0000719W8

Maybe you could rent one. They also can come with a vacuum attachment so the grinder hooks up to a hose and the dust gets sucked up by the vacuum. MUCH less messy!

Removing the old adhesive this way will allow you to tile. If you chemically remove the adhesive, you'd still have to scarify to remove any chemical residue.

Once you're to a clean cement floor, you can Ditra directly over. Here's the deal....as you seem to already know, Schluter says unmodified thinset to set the Ditra in this case. However, you want to use modified for the superior adhesion. There's no reason you couldn't use modified in this case other than:
a) You void any Schluter warranty for installing with non-approved methods
and
b) The curing time of the modified thinset is MUCH longer...as in days, not hours.

It's really your call as long as you understand the above. I'd skip the double thinset idea. If anything, use an SLC first, then your thinset. I just did a basement floor tile job that way. I scarified the floor to remove old adhesive, vacuumed well, primed the floor, added SLC and the next day I had a floor ready to (Ditra) tile.

For your question about products, I prefer to use Mapei. The different numbers are differnet levels of additives. Ultraflex 1 is low grade, cheap. 2 is my premodified thinset of choice. 3 is not necessary and WAY over-priced. However, I prefer a different method. I use Kerabond which is a non modified thinset. To make it modified, I mix with Keralastic (instead of water). To me, that's the best setup.
If you look into the level compound, I use Mapei Novoplan 2 with Primer L. You need to prime the cement to get good adhesive with the SLC.
Make sure you read and follow instructions along the way. Each item/material may need something special, like the recommended trowel size for laying the Ditra...

If you want to take the Ditra one step further, look into getting a roll of Kerdi-Band. You use the Kerdi over any seams in the Ditra and then use it on the perimeter of the Ditra, up the wall. This will give you (if installed properly) a 100% waterproof floor. You're over cement so it's not critical.

Here's a pic from my last job (waterproofing with Ditra/Kerdi):
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Old 12-27-2008, 11:19 AM   #5
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re: new ceramic floor in basement


its not 'scarfing' but scarifying,,, think of running a zamboni over your floor but, instead of the reel knife blades, small carbide-tipped flails hammer the surface from the floor,,, doubt any local rental center'll have this tool but industrial/commercial/highway folks will,,, most popular's edco w/bartell 2nd,,, IF you can't find 1, a 7" grinder fitted w/dust shroud & hooked up to your wet/dry vac'll handle the job,,, we use turbo diamond cup wheels both 12 & 24 segments,,, 'scarfing' is placing the scarf on one's ( or another's ) neck
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:09 PM   #6
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re: new ceramic floor in basement


This is scarifying:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaN6j...eature=related

Although, that guy is using a HUGE machine. I personally own a small, hand-held version:
http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-1773AK-C.../dp/B0000719W8

Quote:
Originally Posted by angus242 View Post
Maybe you could rent one. They also can come with a vacuum attachment so the grinder hooks up to a hose and the dust gets sucked up by the vacuum. MUCH less messy!
This method sounds good, is very straightforward, but my concern, that even with a vacuum, the stray particles (potentially deadly) would get become airborne, including deadly contents. Even with my respirator, and other safety measures including a fan moving air straight out the bathroom window.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angus242 View Post
Removing the old adhesive this way will allow you to tile. If you chemically remove the adhesive, you'd still have to scarify to remove any chemical residue.
So am I understanding, from what you are saying here, is there is no other method for proper adhesion other than preparing (scarifying) the surface of the concrete? or just the best in your opinion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by angus242 View Post
Once you're to a clean cement floor, you can Ditra directly over. Here's the deal....as you seem to already know, Schluter says unmodified thinset to set the Ditra in this case. However, you want to use modified for the superior adhesion. There's no reason you couldn't use modified in this case other than:
a) You void any Schluter warranty for installing with non-approved methods
and
b) The curing time of the modified thinset is MUCH longer...as in days, not hours.
In this renovation, I have potentially a couple of weeks finish the job. Time is not an issue. I can wait.
So this is how I understand it, and please correct me if I am wrong. You are saying I can scrap the dual layer thinset method described in the picture, and just go with modified on top of the concrete floor (without scarifying) , if and only if, I am willing to part with the warranty, and if I have patience to wait 3 days to begin the addition material on top of the ditra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angus242 View Post
It's really your call as long as you understand the above. I'd skip the double thinset idea. If anything, use an SLC first, then your thinset. I just did a basement floor tile job that way. I scarified the floor to remove old adhesive, vacuumed well, primed the floor, added SLC and the next day I had a floor ready to (Ditra) tile.
Forgive my noob ingnorace, but what does "SLC" stand for? If it is the primer, are you saying I should add a primer to the floor? and between which layers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by angus242 View Post
Here's a pic from my last job (waterproofing with Ditra/Kerdi)
I like that Method of Ditra/Kerdi.. Your pic looks good
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:50 PM   #7
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re: new ceramic floor in basement


SLC is a self leveling compound. It is used to help level off floors.

I don't have any advice about the asbestos. I guess I didn't think about that when suggesting scarifying. I see the point. I understand what you're trying to accomplish with the modified layer. My concern would be if you attempted to cover the (remaining) adhesive with a layer of thinset, you're most likely making an uneven surface. That's where the SLC comes into play. It's job is to self-level when used. I'm not familiar enough with the different forms of primer that's needed BEFORE pouring any SLC. Take a look at Mapei's site and see if they have something that will allow usage over the adhesive:
http://www.mapei.it/CMS/Template/_ve...GAS=US&LIN=102
Look under Primers and Bonding Agents and then Self Leveling Underlayments. Again, I suggest Novoplan 2.

And I'm thinking more of 5-7 days for curing modified thinset under Ditra, not just 3. However, if you used an SLC and found a primer that allowed over the adhesive, you could just use a non modified and be done with it.

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