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porcelain versus ceramic tile

39K views 55 replies 11 participants last post by  AdamB5000 
#1 ·
Hi. I am going to tile my kitchen floor. I splurged on a granite countertop. Money is tight now, so I don't want to spend more than I need to on flooring. But, at 52...I want this to be my LAST kitchen floor install. There will be no kids running on it, but I do have a small granite topped kitchen cart that will very occasionally be moving around the floor's surface. I've decided on porcelain or ceramic because I just don't want to put any more weight on my kitchen floor with stone, but I need some direction, please.

I've read that porcelain is stronger than ceramic. And, ceramic tiles are all over the map with price. I'll probably be buying from The Tile Shop. Do you think that they have quality (or at least, not junk) tile? Also, is porcelain that much better than ceramic, because it's nearly twice the price.

I will have the floor professionally installed, since I know my limitations...LOL :laughing:

Any professional direction and opinion will be greatly appreciated! Thanks...pandora
 
#2 ·
Porcelain tile IS ceramic tile. The recipes are slightly different. Porcelain tiles tend to have a higher density and they have a lower moisture absorbtion rate.

Porcelain is the same makeup throughout its thickness but some of it can have a glazed surface. Not all porcelain has a glazed surface. Standard ceramic tile usually has a glazed surface but a different body.

Most all ceramic tiles are quality products and even the lessor products if installed correctly will serve you well.

The bigger issues arise with the substrate and structural criteria and the installation methods used, the tile is the least of your worries.:)
 
#3 ·
Porcelain tiles are stronger, yes, but are they needed, not always. They have their place, the are more dense, meaning that when something is dropped on it they are LESS likely to chip, but yet still can. Their biggest advantage is because they are so dense they can be installed in an exterior location no matter the climate. You will find about 90% of porcelain will have a PEI rating of 5 which is as high as it goes. This is a wear rating given to tile from the Porcelain Enamel Institute and all tile companys list this information about their products. The only time you're likely to find a porcelain at a rating lower than 5 is if it's a dark colour. For some reason they are not able to obtain as hard of a glaze on a darker colour, so you may see something like a 4+ listed instead. As noted in the last post not all porcelain are glazed, so make sure if you go that way to get a glazed one or you'll be sorry and forever cleaning it and applying sealer. Also note most installers will charge more to install porcelain, they are harder to cut and they require more expensive modified mortars.

Ceramic on the other hand in most cases does just fine anywhere in a house. For any high traffic area, as a kitchen would be we want to see NOTHING LESS than a PEI of 3, we really would rather only see a 4, but some 3's are ok too. Anything less than a 3 DOES NOT belong on a floor no matter what they tell you. They chip way too easy.

You base is also SO important, because even a porcelain will crack if the base isn't right. Tile cracking has NOTHING to do with poor quality tile, it's poor quality installation!

We do testing on anything new that comes in just by simply tapping a screw driver against the EDGE of the tile and if it chips in the first tap or two we won't sell it.

Good luck, have fun with it, and find a reputable company that will give a written guarantee on their workman ship and back the tile 100% should there be a fault in the tile. (We guarantee for as long as you own the house, and we back the tiles, if something goes wrong and it's a glaze failure, we fix your floor and then go after the company we bought the tile from for the value of the replacement, of which I'm sure they in turn go back after their supplier and get a credit somehow as well as it was the factory in the end that made the mistake. I hope you can find similiar in your area)
 
#4 · (Edited by Moderator)
The question frequently asked: “What is the difference between porcelain tile and ceramic tile?” Well the answers pretty simple. Porcelain tile is effectively Ceramic tile. It is just made of a more refined material.

All ceramic tiles are made up of clay and quartz ferrous sand materials, along with water. Once the tiles are formed they are fired to high temperatures and in some cases their surfaces are glazed. The only difference between Porcelain tile and regular ceramic tile is that the clay used in porcelain tile is more highly refined and purified. Consequently, porcelain tiles are denser than a standard ceramic tile.

As a result, porcelain tiles are more rugged making them ideal for harsher applications such as flooring. Also, because of their higher density, porcelain tiles are less likely to absorb moisture (0.5%) which makes them more durable and more resistant to staining. Porcelain tiles are frequently found in floor applications, outdoor areas, and in cold weather climates where freezing can occur. With their low absorption capability they are less likely to crack in cold weather climates.

Porcelain tile costs a little more than the traditional, more porous, standard clay tile; however prices in general have been coming down in recent years for ceramic tile.

Ceramic tile comes in either glazed or unglazed surfaces. The glazed surfaces are like glass and are best used on walls as they are too slippery for floor applications. Glazed ceramic tiles are also a little more susceptible to cracking.

Porcelain tile is constructed using red, brown or white clay. Most porcelain tile, however, is constructed using white clay.

When selecting any ceramic tile it is important to look at the PEI factor. This is the scratch resistance factor. A PEI of 1 is ideal for walls. A PEI of 2 is best for bathrooms and kitchens. A PEI of 3 is appropriate for all residential applications, and PEIs of 4 and 5 are applicable for commercial and heavy commercial applications, respectively.

http://www.homeadditionplus.com/tile-stone-info/Porcelain-tile-vs-ceramic-tile.htm
 
#6 ·
Matt...always a comedian in the group!!

Ayeshaa,

I do beg to differ on two of your points, I have sold tile for over 9 years now and

1. NEVER other than Saltillo ever seen a UNGLAZED ceramic. The glazing is what gives it strength and protects it from staining, without it the clay would chip and fall apart.

2. A glazed ceramic IS NOT always GLOSSY and SLIPPERY, many ceramic tiles are glazed and the glazing is MATTE in finish and very durable. Also many are textured, and glazed and don't look like they have a glaze on them at all but they do. Many porcelains are not glazed at all which will make them stain easier than a ceramic so you have to know what you're buying. They come unglazed for the purpose of slip resistance for either commercial or exterior use, most people won't put them in their homes, you can, but most won't want the work.

3. A PEI rating of 2 IS NOT suitable for ANY floor application that is a WALL tile and would chip and crack on any floor application. A 3 is minimum for a floor, and preferrably only a bathroom or light use area, and a 4 for a kitchen or high use area, and a 5 for commercial. A 4 would not hold up in a commercial zone (unless you're talking LIGHT foot traffic like a lawyers office or hair salon, but not something like a factory/restaurant/bank etc) as a 4 is a ceramic product and a softer glaze and through constant travel on it you would eventually wear through the glaze and it would look like a cheap buffet restaurant in no time where you see the traffic patterns on the floors.

You had alot of great info on how they are made and processed, and very accurate, however I wouldn't trust your book source on the other information. I promise you I wouldn't steer you wrong, I've been trained on them and sold only tiles and natural stone for almost 9 years now at a very reputable tile company.
 
#8 ·
We actually sell those as well, except they've changed their tile format to a porcelain and they are unglazed, the ceramic format we used to sell about a year ago however was glazed. I don't know if they market something different for the USA vs. Canada, but we ordered most our stuff up from the USA location. We use three of the colours as an instock item that we use in all new home shower stalls, and I've installed them myself as well and they were a porcelain tile, so I don't have an answer as to why the brochure says ceramic. Either they sell differently to the USA or they haven't updated the web page.
 
#11 ·
Good information here.

Question for you guys. I guess I shot and I'm asking a question later. I already purchased tile for my bathroom. :)

I purchased ceramic tile by Stonepeak Ceramics from a local tile store. This is the spec on the 'slate' style.

http://www.stonepeakceramics.com/download/Slate_Data_Sheet.pdf

I don't see a PEI rating. I did some brief research before purchasing, but I stress the word BRIEF. I usually do more research, but the product looked good and I loved the color and design of the Everglades style.

http://www.stonepeakceramics.com/products-collections-tiles.php?coll=SLATE&linea=EVERGLADES

Maybe ignorance is bliss and I should just install what I bought and never know, but I'd be curious what you think of this brand tile. I'm extremely happy with the look and feel of it... and it wasn't cheap. :) I hope to install it within the month.
 
#12 ·
AdamB5000, I can see why you fell in love with that tile, it's absolutely gorgeous.

First off, I know extremely little about tile, that said I do know what PEI ratings mean as dochorn described above. In the links to the tile you supplied I believe the numbers you see on each tile (called ware resistance) are the PEI ratings, but I'm not positive, but it seems logical.
I have talked to two companies concerning installing ceramic tile in my kitchen and both of them said they would only use PEI 4 or 5 in a kitchen or any floor for that matter. Maybe you would be lucky, but do you really want to take the chance! Some of the real experts can definitely give you first hand experience/information, I really wish you luck.
One other thing, you might want to check with the company to be absolutely sure that wear rating is there way of showing the PEI value. I thought this rating was supposed to be on the box, but I'm not really sure.
 
#13 ·
AdamB5000

I have looked at the spec's and although it does not state that it is a PEI 4 or 5 I suspect it will be. I can almost guarantee that it is a porcelain as it's water obsorption rate is <0.1% and anything less than <0.5% is a good indicator that it's porcelain. Also, althought this may make no sence to anyone else except someone that sells tile, it comes in multiple sizes, very FEW almost NO ceramics come in multiple sizes anymore, we seem to only see porcelains like that. And based on the look of it, which sounds silly I know, but the glaze quality/colouring etc. all SCREAM porcelain to me, most things that look that good are not ceramic. It also noted in the spec.s light commercial use, which to me means it's not a full bodied porcelain, but it is a porcelain and will hold up to most commercial use. Your PEI may only be a 4 due to the colouring involved and nothing to do with the fact that it's a porcelain, but it may also be a 5, usually they can't get a full 5 on those darker colours, but without seeing it in person, it may not be as dark as I think and it could be a 5. How's that for alot of rambling and maybe's?? The store you bought it from would be able to tell you though if you call them up, it should be in their price giude, ours always are.

IF you find out it is porcelain, then make sure you use a proper polymer modified mortar for it as the cheap mortar will not stick. A porcelain is harder and won't take in the water so you need the additives in the modified mortar to make it stick to your substrate. You will also have no choice but to use a wet saw to do your cutting, unless you've got a seriously excellent score and break cutter (in the 300-800 dollar range like a Sigma, you probably won't be able to score and snap it.)

What colour is the back of the tile? Is it putty coloured or whitish possibly with tiny little specs in it?
 
#14 ·
Changeling

I have rarely seen a PEI on the box, most boxes actually don't even have the selling name on them, usually just alot of codes, we have a heck of a time sometimes when a customer calls in and asks if we have another box of something and they're reading their box not their invoice! Only for the sake that most of us have been there for so long we can usually decifer what it is they want. I have to think there's no law of standards for this industry on that kind of thing. (ie what they have to list and what they don't) You will also almost always find (as a side note) the size it says isn't always the size either. It could say 13x13" and it's actually 12.5x12.5 or 13.3x13.3 they seem to be allowed to do that. We always recommend that someone physically measures the tile if they need it for a specific project and it HAS to be say a 12x12 or something and a 12.5x12.5 won't do.
 
#15 ·
dochorn thanks for setting me straight, it has been close to a nightmare for me to try and get it all figured out, then I came to the conclusion (as you suggest/say) that it's not very well controlled with a set of strict code standards but more of a "what the manufacturer wants to call it. I was/am contemplating Congoleum Dura Ceramic 16" (or real tile). But when I read there web site it turned out to be 15 5/8 ", LOL. In my area they want practically the same for a Dura Ceramic installation as for a real tile installation. $1300.00 for DS and maybe 300 more for real tile depending on the cost of the tile.

AdamB5000, if you don't mind my asking what was the cost of that tile in the 12 " size if you happen to know (everglades)?
 
#16 ·
Changeling,

I hope I read you post a little wrong, you didn't mean that the cost of installing tile (the INSTALL part only) was going to change in cost depending on the tile cost did you? An installer should NEVER quote the job based on wether it's a 60 cent tile or a 9 buck one, I Hope you were talking SUPPLY and INSTALL which is why it would change because tile prices are all over the place. If it's not, and the installer wants more because your tile costs more, I'd tell him to stuff it and find another guy, that's just ripping someone off!
 
#17 · (Edited)
Changling,

Oh also remember your wastage rates go up when you get over a 14" tile, we do a standard break and waste of 10% on anything smaller, but 15-20 % on anything over 14". (depends on the size of the room, large room like an eat-in Kitchen with Island and sitting area etc. mostly center pieces, then less waste. Narrow hallways plus bathroom, plus closet, plus sunroom all equalling combined the same as that large kitchen I mentioned, we'd then do 20% as there's alot more OUTSIDE pieces than inside and more cuts to do and more chance of breakage and waste.)
Know that if you're paying someone to put them in they will charge more for...

1. large tile
2. multi size tile patterns
3. diagonal installation
4. porcelain tile over using ceramic tile
5. any natural stone will EASILY add another 4-5 bux a s/f (sealed and including the sealer) to a regular install price, it's just a whole lot more work, and more expensive materials.
 
#18 ·
Adam B 500,
The Everglades PEI rating is 3. This is on the second page of the data sheet. Look at the sample pics and the color names, the number in parentheses is the PEI rating. Stone Peak Ceramic is one of the premier manufacturers of Porcelain tiles in this country.
 
#19 ·
dochorn, that is exactly how they were doing it.

Is it possible for you to give a "install" estimate price on the tile that Adam B5000 liked (above) in 12 " tile for a 100 sq ft area in a kitchen including under layment, glue, grout, whatever, but "NOT" including the tile? I mean a fair price.
 
#20 ·
Changeling,

kinda, but not really....*lol*....I'm off on Mat. leave right now so I don't have my pricing available to me directly, however working from memory I can give you a ballpark of what we would charge. Also remember I'm not in the USA, I'm in Ontario, so our materials are usually a bit more expensive due to transport etc.

We mesh and cement base all our jobs, so we would staple down wire mesh and cement over it to level out the floor. Then second day we set the tiles and third day we grout it. You would probably be looking, without tile, about$1050 - $1100 to install including all materials and labour but no tiles. Tiles at a PEI 3 with that look in our store run around about $1.79-$2.25 per s/f so add on about another 2-300 for tiles, coming in at a total of about $1300-1400 total. Which I think is actually close to what you said, but nobody should charge more if the tile costs more, SURE you pay more TOTAL in the end because your tiles cost more, but if you're buying your own tile and he's putting it in, he should charge you the same labour per s/f if it's a 99 cent one or $6.00 one. (unless you change anything as I mentioned in the other post about extra expenses.) Using a porcelain over a ceramic will run you about 40-50 cents more per s/f for the labour and materials (not incl tile cost extra)
 
#21 ·
Also know that if HE is buying the tiles AND installing them and he want to charge you more then he's REALLY trying to rip you off as most stores that sell ceramic/porcelain etc. give trade discounts and he'll already be getting a discounted price for your tile (which most contractors do not pass along as it's a way for them to make a little extra money in the job) so if ontop of that he then also wants moreto install a pricier tile, I'd be leary about him. We do a standard discount structure based on volume of sales, so say he got 15% off with us, he'll make 14 cents a s/f on a 99 cent tile, but he'll be making 98 cents on a $6.50 s/f tile, so he's already bring in more on the higher the price of the tile. Not saying in anyway that he wouldn't be a good installer, I just don't agree with his ethics.
 
#23 ·
I will do a version of this, sometimes. A lot of the time, I am the primary designer on a remodel. That takes time. I should get paid for my time, whether I'm physically working on your home or sitting at my desk designing your kitchen. IF I did 90% of a design (included tile layout), plus picked out the tile by visiting the store myself and bringing a sample to their home plus pick up the tile order (and materials), I feel I'm entitled to reimbursement for that. If I make 5-10%, I feel that's fair under those circumstances. However, if a HO does most of the work themselves, I pass my discount directly to them.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Angus242

No arguements needed, I don't take offence to any of it, it's not my store I work for someone so he sets out the pricing. However, that being said the reasoning behind it is labour and materials. We use a regular thin set mortar for ceramic tile jobs, because we mesh and cement all our floors we have essentially a "new" floor that we're tiling down on and you don't need the more expensive polymer modified mortars to make a ceramic stick a standard thinset around 14.00 / bag works just fine. (This mortar however is ONLY for new concrete, anyone using plywood or cement board or on old concrete (older than 2 years is our standard) you HAVE to use the more expensive one for proper adhesion.) When setting a porcelain, because they don't obsorb water, the regular mortars don't bond properly and you'll get tiles popping all over the place so we have to use a modified mortar that is more expensive around 28.00 bag(which is a difference right there of about 24 cents s/f). Also almost ALL porcelain tile needs to cut with a wet saw, this also takes MORE TIME, plus wear on the saw and saw blade which a single blade for our saws costs in around $100-$120/blade. When you cut with a wet saw, the tile gets wet ( in case of a porcelain only a bit of surface moisture) but it still needs to dry all the same or the tile doesn't bond to the mortar properly. It's mostly a matter of extra time needed to install a porcelain, these days labour is costing more than the materials themselves almost. Which, if you were the guy installing, you'd appreciate it to be that way, because you can't live on peanuts! Everything out there is costing more food/gas /housing etc. so their wages have to go up as well, and when they go up and our costs on our materials go up because the cost of processing and transport has gone up, our install prices have to match or we wouldn't still be in business. Everyone wants a job done cheap...but as we've always seen, when you get a job done cheap, you get a cheap job!
 
#25 ·
Angus242

If course your time is worth getting paid for! You do more than most, as most clients do their own footwork, and then we write up a selection sheet for them and then the contractor comes in and picks it up/orders it and they almost always take the discount direct after having done no work on the design, our sales staff does all that, we do layouts and drawings etc. and then supply them to their contractor. Good for you!
 
#26 ·
OK, please don't jump all over me for this question. What do you know about "SnapStone"? It's been around for a while. I need to install tile in a 10 x10 room in a beach rental unit. I am going to do it myself and need the easiest install. Floating engineered wood or Pergo won't work because of wet bathing suits and renters not caring about the floors. Can't afford an installer at this point or I'd get regular tile any suggestions? Thanks, Nancy
 
#29 ·
Pull up a chair and a (big) cup of coffee. Get ready to do some heavy reading. I'd like to say for the record, I find Bud Cline to be a very informative and knowledgeable source for all things tile. Keep that in mind when you read this. Lastly, this is a conversation among professionals and it goes off topic at times....but good reading none-the-less.

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=59417
 
#28 · (Edited)
Angus242

*lol*, there's another take on it!! We normally score and snap ceramic installs our guys all have sigmas which can do a whole array of cuts without using a wet saw and they cut much quicker, they can probably do 4 or 5 score cuts to one saw cut! And as far as the mortar goes our base one IS modified, it's just not super modified, we carry three levels of modified, we term them to the public 1. ceramic on concrete, 2. any other interior installation and 3. exterior installation and slate. Then we also deal with white mortar which is modified in the middle range for marble and granite.
 
#32 · (Edited)
OK, so I don't use modified ALL the time. Each situation is different. Typically, if it's a floor, I use Ditra. In that case I use Kerabond over and Kerabond/Keralastic under. For non-Ditra, I may use Ultraflex II for a backsplash or Ultraflex III for tiling over slab. Natural stone is per install requirements...white or grey as needed.

Yes, I agree a score/snap cutter is MUCH faster but I feel like all thumbs when I use one. I just stick to the trusty wet saw. :thumbsup:
 
#30 ·
Nancy-max

Sorry I know nothing about "snap-stone". Hopfully some of the others on here may.

What kind of base is the floor you want to put it down on? Plywood, concrete? If it' conrete real tile isn't all that hard, mostly just time consuming, and I've had MANY a homeowner do it themselves even though they'd never touched a trowel or mortar before and had great success. If it's plywood or similar, you do need to create the proper base for tile and this needs more knowledge, not impossible by any means for a HO, but you'd need more time and info for sure.
 
#33 ·
The subfloor is plywood. My husband thinks that it will be too difficult for us "me" to install regular tile. I'm looking for the easiest install that can be accomplished in the least amount of time. The room is a bedroom that renters have destroyed the carpet numerous times. I've even looked at carpet tiles, but those would have to be replaced after each renter.
 
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