Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Flooring

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-02-2010, 01:12 PM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4
Share |
Default

Porcelain Tile Grout Failure


I had a Bathroom remodel done last year and have had a problem with the grout cracking on the floor tiles. Contractor has returned and replaced some tiles and grout several times. We did find the backerboard was not screwed down suffeciently. Finally convinced the contractor that the floor had to come up to be re-done. My concern is that the underlayment is not suffecient. It is 19/32 OSB. From what I have been able to find, OSB is not stable enough under Porcelain Tile and the backer board doen't add any strength at all.

I am looking for professional advice to use in my meeting with my contractor to assure it is fixed correctly.

In defence of my contractor he has not tried to avoid the problem, my concern is it is right once and for all.

Woodog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2010, 01:27 PM   #2
Tileguy
 
Bud Cline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,066
Default

Porcelain Tile Grout Failure


Your information is NOT very clear as far as describing what you have so here goes......

1.) No tile can be installed over OSB, period.

2.) Tile backer over OSB is legal (not the best idea but legal) but the tile backer MUST be installed in a fresh bed of thinset in addition to being nailed or screwed to the substrate according to the tile-backer's manufacturers fastener recommendations. All tile-backer makers want their product installed in fresh thinset.

3.) The subfloor's deflection must not exceed 1/360.

4.) Floor joists that exceed 16" spacing must be supplemented with addition underlayment material, generally a total of two layers of subfloor is required.

5.) Floor joist spanning is crucial. Spans Tables that show the maximum span allowed are available to anyone that cares to question a structures suitability for a tile installation.

6.) Cement backer boards offer NO structural improvement what-so-ever and are only there to provide a suitable "tooth" for the tile adhesive.

7.) Organic adhesives are not suitable for any porcelain floor tile installation. Thinset mortar that comes in powder form and mixed on-site is the product to use.

All of the above is the responsibility of the installer. A failing floor due to lack of adherence to any of the above is "installer error".

__________________
Make Your Nominations For September 2014 DIYer of the Month
Bud Cline is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 10:20 AM   #3
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4
Question

Porcelain Tile Grout Failure


Thank you Mr. Cline for your advise. When I posted originally, I didn't realize my info was not complete. I will try to expand it.

1. My house is 15 years old and when it was built, my bathroom had vinyl sheet goods on the floor.

2. Floor joists are 2x8-16' On Center. I cold not get any good markings off of them to identify species.

3. Subfloor is 19/32 OSB.

When I had the remodel done, They moved walls plumbing etc, but did not change the subfloor.

The layering as I know it is, 2x8" floor joist 16" on center. Then 19/32" OSB subfloor, then Cement board. I do not know if it was put down with thinset or not. Then we have 12" square Porcelain floor tile.

When, the loose tiles were fixed the first time (about 4 months after job completion) the tile contractor sent found that the cement board was not screwed down suffeciently and tried to correct it before installing new tile. The rest of the floor has not been corrected. The tile contractor also told me he suggested the whole floor neded to come up but the General Contractor who did the remodel balked.

I have an email from the General Contractor who is setting up a meeting next month with the tile contractor and says he has told him to do what it takes to fix it once and for all.

My concern is that I have all the information I need to press that no corners are cut.

One other point, I said the subfloor was not replaced. There is one section that had water damage from a leak at tub base (tub was eliminated) That section is now Plywood and has not been a problem. It is under the walk-in shower and has not failed. This also could be because he used the Schlueter System in the shower.

I appreciate any further suggestions you might have. Thank you
Woodog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2010, 07:30 AM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 9,519
Default

Porcelain Tile Grout Failure


I find it more then a little pathetic that the GC had to explain to the tile contractor how to do a correct install.
The subfloor needs to be at least 1 1/4" thick to install tile on. That's only for stiffness. You would then add the concrete board. You can use the 1/4" size backer on the floor.
Ron

Last edited by Ron6519; 07-18-2010 at 07:34 AM.
Ron6519 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2010, 02:34 PM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 1,737
Default

Porcelain Tile Grout Failure


Hey Bud would Ditra resolve this issue?
Jim F is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2010, 07:13 PM   #6
Tileguy
 
Bud Cline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,066
Default

Porcelain Tile Grout Failure


Check out DITRA on the Schluter website. DITRA is warranted over only 5/8" subfloor but I think the floor joists must be 2X10, not sure 2X8 qualify.

A subfloor "does not" have to be 1-1/4" thick ahead of cement board these days. Most all cement board makers are saying 3/4 is enough.

I know I know, screwy.
__________________
Make Your Nominations For September 2014 DIYer of the Month
Bud Cline is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bud Cline For This Useful Post:
Jim F (07-19-2010)
Old 07-18-2010, 09:27 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 9,519
Default

Porcelain Tile Grout Failure


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
Check out DITRA on the Schluter website. DITRA is warranted over only 5/8" subfloor but I think the floor joists must be 2X10, not sure 2X8 qualify.

A subfloor "does not" have to be 1-1/4" thick ahead of cement board these days. Most all cement board makers are saying 3/4 is enough.

I know I know, screwy.
The cement board makers won't be getting the call back, so I'll be doing it my way.
Ron
Ron6519 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2010, 11:09 AM   #8
Tileguy
 
Bud Cline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,066
Default

Porcelain Tile Grout Failure


Quote:
The cement board makers won't be getting the call back, so I'll be doing it my way.
Ron
I couldn't agree more! I too have questions from time to time about the manufacturers recommendations on how to do certain tasks. In short, I really don't trust everything they say. And you are correct, they won't be getting any call backs, we will. This is why I said in an earlier post (somewhere) that manufacturers warranties had no value in some cases and were nothing more than a marketing ploy to make their product appear to stand-out above similar products among competitors.
__________________
Make Your Nominations For September 2014 DIYer of the Month
Bud Cline is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2010, 07:58 AM   #9
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4
Default

Porcelain Tile Grout Failure


Thank you Bud, Ron6519, and Jim F for your continued information and comments. I reviewed the new posts yesterday and wanted to explore the Ditra further so I downloaded the install manual from the web.

They show using joists 16" OC but no recomendation as to size. I faxed the factory and was very impressed because within an hour and a half I got a phone call from New York. They said that the 2x8" joists were ok but OSB would not work, the minimum was 5/8" T&G Plywood. Then loose the cement board and apply the Ditra.

I understand your combined comments concerning the thickness of the subfloor. I only wanted to pass along the official word from Schluter on joist size.

I am hoping I can find a solution without effectng te height in a big way.

I have two big problems with using the thicker subfloor. My shower walls and the bathroom floor are the same tile. In order to cut down on maintenance, I had the baseboards taken off and used the bullnose for base. The change in height is going to screw up the drywall and I also have an 88 year old Mother-in-Law who lves with us, so I have to be very carefull about transistion heights from floor to carpet. She is very unstable but usually won't use her walker.

Any rays of hope or comments are welcome.

Thanks again, I do appreciate all your help.

Woodog is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Grout sealer on porcelain tile. sukhenkoi Tiling, ceramics, marble 5 04-28-2010 03:51 PM
Sealing my porcelain tile and grout? Fayefur Flooring 1 05-20-2009 12:09 PM
Grout question poolecw Flooring 11 10-29-2008 07:32 PM
Cracking floor grout - Ceramic tile DeepDish Building & Construction 9 08-27-2008 09:51 PM
Cracking floor grout - Ceramic tile DeepDish Flooring 9 03-03-2007 07:49 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.