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-   -   Options for Cold Basement Concrete Floor? (http://www.diychatroom.com/f5/options-cold-basement-concrete-floor-56879/)

jefferis 11-09-2009 01:34 PM

Options for Cold Basement Concrete Floor?
 
Okay folks, here's the sitaution. I have a basement office with carpet installed directly on the concrete floor by the former owner. It is COLD in the winter. I recently watched an episode of Holmes on Holmes where he put down pink board, underlayment then nail gunned it into the concrete and then put down floating flooring. The problems with this solution are 2 fold:

1. I am only doing part of the basement and the door to the office goes to the main basement floor with Traffic Master vinyl tiles directly on concrete. So the difference in floor heights might be as much as 2 " if I use the pink board option.
2. The Traffic Master is too slick for my dogs that slip on it if I don't have a rug down, but I don't want wood in the basement, even engineered wood, that the dogs might scratch up.

I went to Home Depot and found a confusing array of options. So I want a wood-look non-wood product, but it has to have some texture for less slippage. My wife is thinking of the vinyl strips with the 1" black overlap.

I have been reading online as well , and I'm getting a wealth of opinions and warnings. I wanted to get a read on some best options and cautions.

Options suggested for insulation and base:
DriCore, Ovrx Barricade, ThermalDry, Delta FL, and Superseal. And heated flooring.
http://www.ovrx.com/basement-flooring.html
http://www.superseal.ca/all_in_one_subfloor.html
http://www.dricore.com/
http://www.Spycor.com/Cosella_...e_Subfloor_s/109.htm
(Delta FL seems to have lost the english version of a website)

Warning 1. Even though my basement has not flooded and is not likely to, I read of horror stories of those who installed DriCore that flooring and DriCore had to be ripped out because the plastic cups and/or wood underlayment would not dry out, could become a mold hazard, etc. I suspect the same would be the problem with pink board and OSB or Barricade (which uses DOW Blue Board) ? Some said the design flaw in DriCore was fixed since 2007. However it is pricey. And I don't know how much insulation factor it would give.
The Barricade product offers more insulation than DriCore, but it doesn't seem much different than using pink board and your own underlayment...

2. If you have to use plywood underlayment over any system, wouldn't it be subject to the same moisture/flooding problem. The floor guy at HD said that using the thin luan board may cause buckling if the plywood peels, separates, etc. The OSB is about $20 a sheet, so that plus the 1" pink board (at $14) and you you will have 2" between rooms. From what I figure, there is only about $150 difference between using pink board vs. DriCore for my 2 rooms.

3. Installers of ThermalDry complain about the problems they have experienced with the product.

4. I read that using laminate basement flooring over any system might be a problem because it doesn't "breathe." Wouldn't that be the same for vinyl strips over pinkboard with OSB??

5. It seems Delta FL may allow you to put a laminate directly over it without a subfloor or underlayment? Not sure about Allure or vinyl strips... But would DFL insulate and provide a better protection against water problems?

Superseal seems like a similar, less expensive product than Delta FL but it is hard to find.

6. The heated flooring mats. The problem is that for a DIY, you have to lay in mortar mix over the entire floor. I have 2 rooms and I don't need the heating under the entire floor. Using thin set under the whole area would be a waste of time.


Bottom line, everything I've heard so far is to stay away from wood products, laminates, engineered wood, etc. in a basement due to moisture problems. I can't imagine that OSB over pink, or DriCore or Barricade with their particle wood surface, are any safer... But what of the Superseal or Delta solution with vinyl?

I appreciate any feedback, suggestions, experience, and advice.
Thanks
Jeff

ShipTileDirect. 11-10-2009 06:35 PM

I would agree to stay away from wood, laminates, ect in the basement. I think a heated matt like Nuheat would do the trick. Its thin mat that you thinset down. Next step is you encapsulate it with a self-leveling thinset and cover the entire desired area to tile. Basement floors usually aren't too flat, so the self-leveling mortar will help you get a good surface to work with.

Another suggestion is split the basement between tile and carpet. It will help divide the room up the basement. The carpet area could be a place to watch TV, and you can have tile from the bottom of the stairs to maybe a bar area. I have this set up in my basement, and I love it. If the basement does leak one day, you won't have the headache to replace the entire basement floor. You would just have to replace the carpeted area. Also, if you did a heated mat under the tile the different in the height of the subfloor would flow smoothly into the carpeted area.

jefferis 11-11-2009 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShipTileDirect. (Post 351538)
I would agree to stay away from wood, laminates, ect in the basement. I think a heated matt like Nuheat would do the trick. Its thin mat that you thinset down. Next step is you encapsulate it with a self-leveling thinset and cover the entire desired area to tile. Basement floors usually aren't too flat, so the self-leveling mortar will help you get a good surface to work with.

Another suggestion is split the basement between tile and carpet. It will help divide the room up the basement. The carpet area could be a place to watch TV, and you can have tile from the bottom of the stairs to maybe a bar area. I have this set up in my basement, and I love it. If the basement does leak one day, you won't have the headache to replace the entire basement floor. You would just have to replace the carpeted area. Also, if you did a heated mat under the tile the different in the height of the subfloor would flow smoothly into the carpeted area.

Thanks for the recommendations. I'm trying to stay away from carpet for 2 reasons... over time humidity builds up and wet dogs can create an odor.

Jeff

26yrsinflooring 11-11-2009 01:30 PM

I would try the Pink with some Konecto.
I would first seal the concrete.

samfloor 12-06-2009 10:13 PM

26 years in flooring, one of your customers has been trying to contact you.


-removed-
Please contact via PM or E-mail
Thank you
Moderator

Scuba_Dave 12-07-2009 07:03 AM

Samfloor - Please contact via E-mail or PM
This is not the place for this communication
Thank you

ccarlisle 12-07-2009 08:49 AM

Back to the original thread...

No-one knows for sure because you haven't said, but since you watch Holmes on Homes, can we assume you're in Canada? Either way, knowing where your house is located would help people give you proper recommendations since I'll bet you what Mike Holmes did doesn't apply to a house in Florida now don't you think? BTW most of Mike Holmes' renovation projects are in Ontario - Ontario, Canada not California.

So let's assume you in such a zone that basement floor insulation is needed. If so, the house was probaby built with an unfinished basement and finishing it would be up to the owners of the house, not the builders. As such, by adding insulation to the inside of the house envelope means that the ceiling will have dropped - or the floor is now higher - becaseu of the added insulation...That means the doors won't fit. So reframe them. No bid deal. Or shorten the doors. Not a major problem...

The bigger issue is the conrete floor, is it watertight etc. All concrete lets in moisture so you'll have to mange that. And what Mike Holmes did is...uh...let me guess..."done on the cheap"? done wrong? done by an amateur?

I think not...Nope, what he did is the gospel according to the state of the art up here in Ontario. Thermal break on the floor using XPS, plywood subfloor on top of that, then carpet or whatever is your choice. Sure, no matter who builds it, you could have a flood. But make sure your plumbing is fine, the weping system and the drains and you're managing the risk.

You have so many questions that you risk paralysis from analysis; OK you've discarded carpet...why? because of potential wet-dog odour? I have two dogs and carpet plus I'm a darned good carpet cleaner...but what do you think professional carpet cleaners do all day?

Dogs scratching wood floors? clip their nails for $5 a month. Our dogs are 80lbs each and we have hardwood in the LR. No problems!

I really think you are over-thinking all this and discarding some quite viable solutions, like DriCore, for odd reasons. Start with what you want on the floor and then work backwards to the concrete to see what steps need be taken to accomplish that objective. Right now, you don't know where to turn as every option you have chosen is being discarded, some on anecdotal evidence.

Time to take charge...!

AllanJ 12-07-2009 09:43 AM

Floor leveler and/or a layer of concrete and/or tiles will make for an attractive durable surface that is just as cold as the existing floor. Masonry, brick, and cement have a very low R value.

As far as the cupped layer of Dricore accumulating moisture, was that under normal conditions over a period of years, or was there a flood?

I have been looking into Dricore for my basement but don't have the money budgeted yet. To combat the cold floor, some form of insulation is needed. I have also thought about a DIY forced air underfloor ventilation system similar to an radon mitigation system that could keep Dricore dry.

As in the walls, there may be only one moisture barrier in the floor. Dricore and Delta floor have a moisture barrier so the finished flooring must be porous. (Well, I suppose if you painted the bare concrete with a moisture retarding paint you can still use Dricore, etc. as you are not trapping moisture within interior space.)

VelvetFoot 12-07-2009 01:16 PM

How about stained concrete with area rugs?
The rugs could be rolled up and stored somewhere for the summer so they won't get moldy.

26yrsinflooring 12-07-2009 06:00 PM

Wow, it seems like our northen friend got a little worked up, relax CC.
I like Holmes but what started out as good is now in the pocket of the special interest just like everything.

ccarlisle 12-08-2009 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26yrsinflooring (Post 363005)
Wow, it seems like our northen friend got a little worked up, relax CC.
I like Holmes but what started out as good is now in the pocket of the special interest just like everything.

LOL... yeah, I get hot under the collar when I hear people over-analysing things to death. Do that myself too!

Holmes now has a show on 'inspections'...interesting!

DangerMouse 12-08-2009 07:33 AM

cork... warm, soft on the feet and ok for dogs.

DM

user1007 12-09-2009 04:32 AM

Cork is great and you can either glue it down or float it which would be great in a basement. It is sound and heat insulating and naturally capable of handling moisture changes. It is a renewable resource. I like products from this company (and installers seem to be pleased with it too) but there are certainly other options. The stuff at the box stores isn't worth the money though and you will not find the color options.

http://www.duro-design.com/

ghopper57 12-09-2009 08:08 AM

diyer
 
i put down the heated mats (suntouch) on a concrete bathroom and family room floor and covered with tile and i love them, but when doing a fairly large area with self leveling mortar it doesn't always get completely level, the mortar tends to harden rather quickly. if you go this route make sure you have help 1 or 2 people mixing and another pouring

26yrsinflooring 12-09-2009 11:57 AM

You can always try this: www.idealheat.com


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