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Old 05-08-2013, 11:58 AM   #16
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New Engineered Hardwood Bowing?


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Originally Posted by 7 VII 7 View Post
Some other friends who have installed floors are saying they put it too tight to the wall and when it expanded it POPPED up.
Pull the baseboard off and see if the floor is tight to the wall. If it is, that could likely be the problem.

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Old 05-08-2013, 06:25 PM   #17
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New Engineered Hardwood Bowing?


Flooring Pro's.... Maybe I should start another thread, but this question is so closely related to OP's issue, I'll post here.

I've never done a glue-down on a slab on grade... but I know it's done.

What protect's a glue-down from slab moisture?

When I float over SOG, I put down a good vapor barrier underlayment, tape the seems/etc. So what protects a glue-down.

I have no problem/question as to a glue-down in an extreemly or assuredly dry slab situation.

Just never understood.

Related to OP's problem, could it be moisture related?

Petr
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:58 AM   #18
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New Engineered Hardwood Bowing?


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Flooring Pro's.... Maybe I should start another thread, but this question is so closely related to OP's issue, I'll post here.

I've never done a glue-down on a slab on grade... but I know it's done.

What protect's a glue-down from slab moisture?

When I float over SOG, I put down a good vapor barrier underlayment, tape the seems/etc. So what protects a glue-down.

I have no problem/question as to a glue-down in an extreemly or assuredly dry slab situation.

Just never understood.

Related to OP's problem, could it be moisture related?

Petr
This is what they used for glue

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Old 05-09-2013, 10:45 AM   #19
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New Engineered Hardwood Bowing?


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This is what they used for glue

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Thanks 777... So just the glue in effect forms a good enough vapor barrier.
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:01 PM   #20
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New Engineered Hardwood Bowing?


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. So just the glue in effect forms a good enough vapor barrier.
I didn't read anything in the technical data sheet to support that.
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:10 PM   #21
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I didn't read anything in the technical data sheet to support that.
Me either.... so I guess I still don't understand original issue/question for certain.
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:47 PM   #22
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New Engineered Hardwood Bowing?


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Me either.... so I guess I still don't understand original issue/question for certain.
So when working with a concrete slab and hard wood gluing... what do they recommend as a vapor moisture barrier if not glue?
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:00 PM   #23
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New Engineered Hardwood Bowing?


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So when working with a concrete slab and hard wood gluing... what do they recommend as a vapor moisture barrier if not glue?
777... That's my question... sort of.

Does the glue provide a sufficient vapor barrier on a slab that may be exposed to some moisture invasion (on grade or below grade)?

Alternatively, should one not due a glue down on any slab potentially subject to moisture invasion?

I've never understood whether glue was a sufficient vapor barrior on SOG when you have a slab that potentially might be subject to moisture.

But I've seen installations on slabs that are below grade even.

I won't due it.... but maybe I'm dead wrong. Will you?

I was just looking for a professional evaluation.

Thanks

Peter
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:06 PM   #24
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New Engineered Hardwood Bowing?


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Originally Posted by MTN REMODEL LLC View Post

777... That's my question... sort of.

Does the glue provide a sufficient vapor barrier on a slab that may be exposed to some moisture invasion (on grade or below grade)?

Alternatively, should one not due a glue down on any slab potentially subject to moisture invasion?

I've never understood whether glue was a sufficient vapor barrior on SOG when you have a slab that potentially might be subject to moisture.

But I've seen installations on slabs that are below grade even.

I won't due it.... but maybe I'm dead wrong. Will you?

I was just looking for a professional evaluation.

Thanks

Peter
I know that Bostich makes a "paint-on" vapor barrier for this exact application. I can't recall if it's also the adhesive, our if the adhesive goes on after it cures.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:28 AM   #25
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New Engineered Hardwood Bowing?


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Originally Posted by MTN REMODEL LLC View Post
777... That's my question... sort of.

Does the glue provide a sufficient vapor barrier on a slab that may be exposed to some moisture invasion (on grade or below grade)?

Alternatively, should one not due a glue down on any slab potentially subject to moisture invasion?

I've never understood whether glue was a sufficient vapor barrior on SOG when you have a slab that potentially might be subject to moisture.

But I've seen installations on slabs that are below grade even.

I won't due it.... but maybe I'm dead wrong. Will you?

I was just looking for a professional evaluation.

Thanks

Peter
From the installation manual

Concrete subfloor:
Prior to installation, concrete subfloor should preferably be 45 to 90
days old, 30 days being the absolute minimum. Concrete moisture meter must be used
to check subfloor moisture level; in case of positive reading, calcium chloride test must be per-
formed. The concrete subfloor moisture content must not exceed 3 lbs / 1,000 sq. ft. / 24 hours
. If the reading exceeds 3 lbs, use a complete moisture-proofing system [sealer and
adhesive] manufactured by Bostik, Franklin, or Sika. Please refer to the manufacturer’s doc-
umentation for the selected products for information on their warranty, product limitations,
and installation recommendations.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:52 AM   #26
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New Engineered Hardwood Bowing?


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Originally Posted by KStatefan View Post
From the installation manual

Concrete subfloor:
Prior to installation, concrete subfloor should preferably be 45 to 90
days old, 30 days being the absolute minimum. Concrete moisture meter must be used
to check subfloor moisture level; in case of positive reading, calcium chloride test must be per-
formed. The concrete subfloor moisture content must not exceed 3 lbs / 1,000 sq. ft. / 24 hours
. If the reading exceeds 3 lbs, use a complete moisture-proofing system [sealer and
adhesive] manufactured by Bostik, Franklin, or Sika. Please refer to the manufacturer’s doc-
umentation for the selected products for information on their warranty, product limitations,
and installation recommendations.
THanks, I will bring that up. I KNOW they did not do this.

Last edited by 7 VII 7; 05-10-2013 at 09:55 AM. Reason: found it.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:06 PM   #27
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New Engineered Hardwood Bowing?


I just talked to Mirage about the recommended install of their engineered wood and they said that a moisture reading is recommended and if it is over 3lbs per 1000sqft then a moisture barrier is required. They recommend a moisture barrier anyways but outside of that 3lbs then there should be one down. The installer did not do a reading or a moisture barrier /vapor barrier.

I called the adhesive company and asked them about their product and if it included a moisture control or vapor barrier. They said no, it is not intended to deal with moisture outside the recommendation of 3lbs per 1000sqft that the Mirage specs are. He said it again, the adhesive is not supposed to be a moisture barrier or vapor barrier.

Looks like the installer has some explaining to do and the only way I am going to feel comfortable about this is to have them re-do everything
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:21 PM   #28
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New Engineered Hardwood Bowing?


Wow 777....

Sorry about that...but at least they are telling the truth and at least the installers are part of the supplier and there is no cross-finger-pointing.

I never knew how to handle a glue-down vapor barrier situation. Now I know. Thank you to who accurately answered it accurately... I believe it was KState.

But I do wonder what they do to repair it.Can they just rip it up, scrape it some, and go over with the vapor-retarder glue????

I ask because I had a similar problem in Cali at my daughters home... sort of. On her wavy SOG (and suspect as to moisture invasion) she had that black vinyl adhesive which was not scrapable off. I could/would not due a glue down, although I wanted a sturdy, not bouncy, install. I ended doing what we call a glue-up (TnG with glued joints...not click lock). Alot of pad shimming, but came out pretty good (except for one spot in hallway is a little bouncy).

But the similar issue, do they have to completely scrape clean your slab?.

Just curious... let us know if you can.

Peter
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:47 PM   #29
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New Engineered Hardwood Bowing?


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Wow 777....

Sorry about that...but at least they are telling the truth and at least the installers are part of the supplier and there is no cross-finger-pointing.

I never knew how to handle a glue-down vapor barrier situation. Now I know. Thank you to who accurately answered it accurately... I believe it was KState.

But I do wonder what they do to repair it.Can they just rip it up, scrape it some, and go over with the vapor-retarder glue????

I ask because I had a similar problem in Cali at my daughters home... sort of. On her wavy SOG (and suspect as to moisture invasion) she had that black vinyl adhesive which was not scrapable off. I could/would not due a glue down, although I wanted a sturdy, not bouncy, install. I ended doing what we call a glue-up (TnG with glued joints...not click lock). Alot of pad shimming, but came out pretty good (except for one spot in hallway is a little bouncy).

But the similar issue, do they have to completely scrape clean your slab?.

Just curious... let us know if you can.

Peter
So after doing research and what I WOULD BE HAPPY WITH. The only way they are going to do this is pulling up everything and doing it over again with new wood and do the proper checks and procedures. For freaks sake they did not even get up all the glue from before or even put a sealant down.

I am going to ask them to redo everything because that is the only way I wont have to deal with a headache 6 months down the road, 1 year, 3 years etc. The fact that I asked them and they said it was not needed and now KNOWING that Mirage recommends it for their warranty is a big issue. I will not except them pulling up a little bit of the wood and putting more glue down and then adding a extension gap. It is only a matter of time it happens in another corner or even in the middle when we have furniture in there.
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Old 05-10-2013, 02:11 PM   #30
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So after doing research and what I WOULD BE HAPPY WITH. The only way they are going to do this is pulling up everything and doing it over again with new wood and do the proper checks and procedures. For freaks sake they did not even get up all the glue from before or even put a sealant down.

I am going to ask them to redo everything because that is the only way I wont have to deal with a headache 6 months down the road, 1 year, 3 years etc. The fact that I asked them and they said it was not needed and now KNOWING that Mirage recommends it for their warranty is a big issue. I will not except them pulling up a little bit of the wood and putting more glue down and then adding a extension gap. It is only a matter of time it happens in another corner or even in the middle when we have furniture in there.
or if you get really heavy rains and high water level in the yard

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