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Old 12-12-2012, 07:24 PM   #16
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need real expertise asap please: Floor Leveling Problems


I think there are bigger problems to deal with. In a 12'x13' room you have 5 cracked joists and some are rolling, sounds to me like you have some structure problems. It could be anything from undersized to movement and you did not help by adding the weight of all the leveler. The first thing I would do is get some support under those beams then remove the leveler. And I would also check the joists in the rest of the entire house. To be honest this may be a little beyond the scope of DIY. You may find this is just an addition that someone did poorly, but you must find out why this happened, and if it is just this one location.

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Old 12-12-2012, 08:29 PM   #17
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need real expertise asap please: Floor Leveling Problems


Hey.

Ok so it isnt an addition; it is part of the original build. I have put about 20 50lb bags of leveler on the floor upstairs over a 10x 15 area.

That help?

What would you guys like pics of since i alread furred them out? I will do so tomorrow when it is light out since I have power off in there.

Thanks!
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:06 PM   #18
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need real expertise asap please: Floor Leveling Problems


So the new sister joists are 2x10 douglas fir that i have ripped .75 inches off of to fit the bow in the floor. Over only 12' these should be fine if i sister five of the 16" center joists shouldnt it? Seems like i am doing overkill here doesnt it? The floor was sagged in the middle not on the edges, so i am thinking it probably isnt the foundation, or anything that serious, right? There was on board in the middle that was particularly bad that may have been weak to begin with and a couple had several large split knots. Does this suggests the lumber was bad to begin with?

The original joists are a darker orangey color and from 1970 . What might they be?

Also, a couple of the original joists are shimmed up on the inside end where they connect the the butt end of the other joists with the plywood and are supportes by the loadbearing bathroom wall. Is it normal to shim up joists like this???

Thanks everyone...nice to not feel so alome on this mess!

Last edited by Bradeno; 12-12-2012 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:15 PM   #19
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need real expertise asap please: Floor Leveling Problems


I think that what the posters want to see is the condition of the joists and how they are supported especially the extent of the bowing and the extent of the cracks. When you say you furred them out, do you mean you put furring strips perpedicular to the joists? I think you mentioned that this would interfere with the ability of the pics to reveal the problems. Am i correct?
Getting back to the jacking which seems to be the consensus, I have to warn you that there is some risk in this procedure. It really has to be done slowly and I am certain there are other things you need to know as well. Do your research before attempting. Would you consider having a contractor do this for you?
The idea of finding out what caused the problem is a good one because there is a possibility that some other defects need to be addressed to prevent reoccurence. However, unless the other defects are obvious I doubt you will spot them. That brings us to an inspection by an engineer. Understand that his conclusion might be faulty joists (bad lumber) and nothing more. However, that would be good news it would provide peace of mind.
Sometimes a simple project like laying a laminate floor becomes a more complicated job. I think every DIYer has encountered this at least once.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:21 PM   #20
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need real expertise asap please: Floor Leveling Problems


Furred the lengthwise so the sister joist would lay smooth across the plywood plates on the ends.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:58 PM   #21
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Cracked, sagging twisted, rip out the subfloor and joist and reinstall all of it and do it right this time.
Make sure to use hangers, wider joist, blocking between the joist.
Trying to do all that patching is like putting lip stick on a pig.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:13 AM   #22
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I agree with Joe this needs Fixed not patched
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:46 AM   #23
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need real expertise asap please: Floor Leveling Problems


Nothing you are saying is making any sense. You have applied about 1200 lbs of dead load to a failed floor. You continued to add weight as the floor deflected due to the applied weight. Now you want to know if you can save the laminated leveling material, and you will not send us any pictures. The bottom line is:

1. No, you cant save the leveling courses, you dont want them, and you wont need them once the floor is corrected.

2. You have a very serious structural condition which needs to be torn out and replaced correctly. What is the point of sistering to failed joists, you said they were cracked. Sistering is OK to limit and hold deflection, but yours have failed completely, and therefore they have no structural value. There are pros on here that are trying to help you, but nobody can understand how you put furring strips on failed joists, and I dont understand what plywood plates even means.

3. Hire a structural engineer, and a professional carpenter to execute his directions, and take out a loan that leaves you enough to buy a digital camera. You can get a decent one for about a hundred bucks nowadays.

You cant shine S**T
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:31 PM   #24
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need real expertise asap please: Floor Leveling Problems


Quote:
Originally Posted by jagans View Post
You cant shine S**T
Actually, Myth Busters proved that statement to be false. I think it involved freezing said S**T, prior to sanding and buffing.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:01 PM   #25
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I just had a structural engineer out and he said I was blowing everything out of proportion. Says i just need to shim up the ends of the joists that arent on the stud wall plate and add 2 equally spaced lateral rows of 2x4 bracing . The cracks and bowing were pretty standard for houses of this age and it wasnt really rolling, just cupping due to not being shimmed on the ends and possibly a single bad jist that I am sistering on both sides. Am still going to sister 5 joists, but he thinks it is all overkill. Says to just leave the slc upstairs and that 1000 pounds spread evenly like that is completely fine.
And he didnt chargw his nlrmal 110 fee to come out!

So glad i didnt have to have the ******* city inspector out here who makes everything thousands of dollars to fix and slaps everyone with any fine he can think of.

Relief! A great feeling.

Last edited by Bradeno; 12-13-2012 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:27 PM   #26
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That is called Checking, not cracking, just as cupping is not rolling. Had you used the correct terminology, or learned it, or had simply sent us pictures, you could have saved yourself and more importantly, all of us a lot of time and worthless speculation. Im glad your problem is not serious, and I guess I should have asked if you dropped a wrecking ball on the floor, because that is what it would take to CRACK 5 joists.

I dont think Im going to respond without pictures anymore. In some cases it is really a waste of time

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Old 12-13-2012, 01:32 PM   #27
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Thanks for the follow-up. A lot of times the OP just drops out w/o explaining the end resolution. Since the engineer had the benefit of seeing the floor and joists he was in a better position than others who were relying upon your observations to pass judgement. Based upon your description a complete demolition and reconstruction would not have been unreasonable. The posters who respond are careful not to suggest the OP tackle repairs that are beyond the scope of an average DIYer, repairs that are not likely to succeed and finally repairs that involve subjecting the OP to danger.
The city inspector who suggests repairs that are costly is often homeowners best friend. They detect unsafe situations and have the experience and knowledge that the homeowner lacks. When I had a dormer constructed by a very reputable company I looked forward to each inspection. The inspectors found several issues like lack of fire blocking, springy subfloor and recessed lighting fixtures that would not allow adequate insulation. The contractor responded to each complaint and in the end I wound up with a much better job.
In any case, I am glad it worked out for you.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:36 PM   #28
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Good grief man, why the anger? I am very thankful for all the advice here. The structural engineer called them cracks and he has 50 years experience. The contractor called them cracks. What did i do wrong? There is one bad joist that is probably the cause of all. The mess and the unshimmed ends.

Thank you all again. Very much. Made me confident that structural engimeer was the way to go. Shoulda come here before the fur strips so i could send good pics, but i didnt think of this first so i gave all the information I could. Hope that is ok. I thought that is what this forum was for...

Thanks again everyone. Will post a pic of finished job in a week or two!

Last edited by Bradeno; 12-13-2012 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:44 PM   #29
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need real expertise asap please: Floor Leveling Problems


Bradeno,
Don't let it get to you. There is great advice to be found here so come back anytime. Some posters are a little more tense than others. I have been called out on the carpet too. No big deal. I'll look forward to your picture.
The main thing is that you got the engineer's report that nothing terrible is going to occur. Good luck.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:54 PM   #30
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need real expertise asap please: Floor Leveling Problems


The point that I was trying to make since I am the "Tense" one is that it is very simple to upload pictures if you have no idea what the correct terminology is. Wood checks with age, as it dries out. It may very well be that the term "checking" came about to avoid confusion. When a carpenter hears the term "Crack" he visualizes a break all the way across the board like a "cracked bat" A check, on the other hand runs longitudinally down the middle of the board, and does not substantially effect the load bearing capacity of the member. Roll, on the other hand has nothing to do with Cup. With a cupped member, the top and bottom of the member are still vertically plumb. with roll, the whole member has rotated, and lost its ability to support a load, since the strength axis has rolled perpendicular to the applied force.

By all means come back, but please do so bearing photos, so us poor wood butchers know of what you speak

PS Kudos for getting a PE to look at it.


Last edited by jagans; 12-13-2012 at 08:58 PM.
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