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Old 02-09-2012, 09:08 AM   #1
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Need advice on Bathroom subflooring


I completely demoed my 2nd floor bathroom. Have a thread on it in Kitchen and Bathroom remodeling but though it be better to post each problem I have in separate threads. I am down to the subfloor and am wondering what I should do with it. I've included 3 pictures.
1st pic shows the subfloor under the tub. Its 5/8 of and inch and goes over the complete bathroom floor. Its seems like its in decent shape except where the front of the tub met the tile. Water damage there which you can see in the 3rd picture.
2nd picture show 1/2 " ply wood over the 5/8" subfloor. This is where the tile was. On top of that was 3/4-1" concrete board ( that was a pain to remove).
3rd pic - you can see where there is water damage to both the 5/8 and 1/2 inch plywood.

What would you guys do. I plan on putting a steel tub(60 pounds)/ steel tub with insulating material (90 pounds) /fiberglass tub (75 pounds). Ceramic tile will go on the floor outside of the tub. From what I can see no the joist are 2x10's and space 16 " apart (little less from the two that I can see).

I don't mind removing just the 1/2" plywood, removing all the subfloor. Leaving it as is and just replacing the damaged area.

Things to consider. I don't want to go too high with the flooring, I'd like it to be around the same height of the wood floors ouside (see pics). With the 5/8" subfloor and the 1/2" plywood the wood floor is about 1/4" higher. The cast iron radiator - it heavy, don't know about moving it right. Pipes ending up being a different height. Might cause me a major headache (see pics). It looks as if the feet of the radiator are above the subfloor with a tile under them to give it more height. If I remove the subfloor I can remove the 50 year old insulation in there (and either replace it or just leave it out).

Thanks in advance for any help.
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:21 AM   #2
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Need advice on Bathroom subflooring


If it was my job I'd cut out all that old subflooring and replace with 3/4 T & G Advantec subflooring. Constrution adhesive on top of the joist and use ceramic coated screws. Over that go with 1/2 sub floor rated plywood making sure the seams do not line up with the subfloor below. It needs to be attached ever 4" on the edges and 6 to 8" in the field.

To cut out the old flooring use a Toe Kick saw and an ossilating saw for the inside corners.
Blocking needs to be added where the subflooring goes againt the bottom plates for support.

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Old 02-09-2012, 11:50 AM   #3
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Need advice on Bathroom subflooring


Since I was off today and wanted to get started and Joe has over 2000 posts I decided to rip out the subfloor.
Don't have tools you mentioned Joe but I'll sure I will get by with what I have. So your saying 3/4" over the entire floor and then 1/2" over the whole thing or just where I'm going to tile? Do I need to put a layer of concrete board under where I'm tiling as well?

How about the insulation? The house is from the 1950. Its the original insulation. Its says
Owens-Corning Fiberglas
Building Insulation
Just Naturally Better - (with asbestos they forgot to add)

but seriously the stuff is 60 years old. Would you remove it? Leave it? I'm going to send samples to Western Labs to get it analyzed. If it does contain asbestos would you guys remove it? If it doesn't would you remove it.
The whole job I've been using a 3m Half respirator mask with p100 filters. and have had a fan blowing out the window the whole time. I'm sure its still not that safe but I'm taking some precaution.

There is also some water stains below some pipes which has me worried that they are leaking . New this wasn't going to be easy

Thanks Jay
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Old 02-09-2012, 06:25 PM   #4
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Need advice on Bathroom subflooring


Quote:
Originally Posted by joecaption View Post
Over that go with 1/2 sub floor rated plywood .
I just did this, by floor rated plywood he means anything BCX and above. The sheathing plywood has too many voids.
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:25 PM   #5
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Need advice on Bathroom subflooring


I strongly suggest you up date the piping to copper or pex (if allowed in your area)

That is old pipe and nearing the end of its useful life---this is the best time----

As to the subfloor ---what are you putting over it? Tile? natural stone?
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:38 PM   #6
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I'm probably just going to put ceramic tile. Something from home depot or lowes. 12x12 or may 9x9 .

I mean ripping the bath apart wasn't that bad so far. Just took time. Which I have But I really wasn't looking to throw a ton of money into it. This whole house needs work if I really thought about it.

How much of the pipe should be replaced and to what point. Down the walls, into the next room ? Are you talking drain pipes or the pressure water pipes? Everything?

Do you mean the giant toilet drain pipe that vents up to the attic? The pipes going to the radiator system? If so how would I get to all this. All I really work with is what I see in the bathroom.

Don't know if this will help but I plan to do the 1st floor bathroom but not till this is completely done.

I would like to do this right but don't want to go overboard. Mike from reading these boards I know your opinion is highly regarded so if you have the time would you please expand on exactly what you pipes I should change. I can take more pics if you require.

The house is located in Staten Island which is part of NYC. I'd have to look up code.

Thanks
Jay
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:31 PM   #7
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You should replace as much of that iron water supply pipe as possible. Ideally down to the cellar or wherever it originates. Iron corrodes and becomes occluded, reducing water pressure, and then it fails. It's best practice (and beyond that, just smart) to replace it when you have access to it. The waste pipes should be changed too but are a lower priority and if they look to be in decent shape can stay.
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:55 PM   #8
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I agree 100% on getting rid of that old steel piping. If you used pex there would be no couplings needed where you have all those leaks.
There is no asbesto in fiberglass insulation.
There should be R-19 insulation under that floor.
The reason I suggested using a Toe Kick saw was so the subflooring could be cut flush with the walls. By using a ciruler saw your 1-1/2" from the wall. If the new subfloor is a diffeant thickness there's going to be a step all the way around the room your going to have to deal with.
You can rent a Toe Kick at Home Depot or just buy a cheap one at Northern tool. I see you have an ossilating saw. that will work to.
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:56 AM   #9
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Wow this is a lot to consider. I seriously don't know if I decide to do the piping over that I could do any myself. Seems to be a huge deal to tackle. I think I'd have to rip the 1st floor bathroom apart to get to same piping. First floor bathroom is right below the second. I really don't know if I'm up for this or if even a plumber would be able to do this work with the limited access they have to the piping.

Joe I was able to get the full floor up with the tools I had except whats under the radiator. I'm not sure if i'm going to remove that just yet.
As far as the fiberglas not having asbestos, I'd be thrilled if that was not true. But from reading about that companies products, espicially during the time period when the house was build I'm skeptical. Should have lab confirmation in a few day. Took 2 samples, one from the floor one from the wall insulation.
If it is not asbestos I can remove it and get a better idea of the pipe layout.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:16 AM   #10
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If it's not wet and it's the right R value why would you remove it at all. Once it's sealed over with new drywall It's harmless. Start pulling it out and the fibers become air born and now it's a threat.
If any of it is stained or in poor condition just wear your mask and bag it.
It's not a big deal.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:33 AM   #11
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Joecaption I just thought if it wasn't dangerous I'd remove it and either leave it out since the bathroom is on the second floor. Is insulation usually put in between the 1st and 2nd floor? Or replace it with brand new insulation at the correct R value for floors. This house was built in 1955, which means the insulation, piping, etc is over 57 years old. Just though all new stuff would have to be better. At least new stuff that I'm capable of replacing (piping to be determined)
It does seem the second floor is always colder than the first.
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:31 AM   #12
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The only reason to have insulation between the two floors is to control sounds from transfuring down to the first floor.
The first floor heat rises and would help heat the second floor if there was no insulation.
Fiberglass insulation does not wear out. If it was installed wrong, there's lots of holes in it, then replace it.
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:27 PM   #13
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Insulation came back asbestos free. So I removed it. Still deciding weather I'll replace it with some new insulation with the correct R value for sound dampening.
Having a plumber/friend of uncle come over tomorrow to examine the pipes. I'm leaning toward getting it all replace. I'm even willing to demo the downstairs bathroom to give him access to all the pipes straight down to the basement/garage. Bathrooms are stacked so I'm assuming they use most of the same piping.

I'm still a little confused about the recommended subflooring?
3/4 plywood (floor grade) over the whole floor? Even under the tub?
On top of that additional 1/2 plywood? Even under the tub?
the concrete board under where I'm tiling?

This is going to be higher than I want. Is there anyway 3/4 " plywood would work, and then 1/4 " concrete board where I am tiling?

And as far a gluing it down. Is that smart. What happens if I ever need to remove it, I'll never be able to get it up?
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:59 PM   #14
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Need advice on Bathroom subflooring


Quote:
Originally Posted by jasesun23
Insulation came back asbestos free. So I removed it. Still deciding weather I'll replace it with some new insulation with the correct R value for sound dampening.
Having a plumber/friend of uncle come over tomorrow to examine the pipes. I'm leaning toward getting it all replace. I'm even willing to demo the downstairs bathroom to give him access to all the pipes straight down to the basement/garage. Bathrooms are stacked so I'm assuming they use most of the same piping.

I'm still a little confused about the recommended subflooring?
3/4 plywood (floor grade) over the whole floor? Even under the tub?
On top of that additional 1/2 plywood? Even under the tub?
the concrete board under where I'm tiling?

This is going to be higher than I want. Is there anyway 3/4 " plywood would work, and then 1/4 " concrete board where I am tiling?

And as far a gluing it down. Is that smart. What happens if I ever need to remove it, I'll never be able to get it up?
You want 3/4" ply then backer board then tile or no backer board and 1/2" ply but no one will recommended to tile on ply.

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Old 02-15-2012, 09:40 PM   #15
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If youre concerned about height then use ditra uncoupling membrane with the 3/4" t&g ply.

do not tile directly to plywood. Im no pro but everything ive ever read and people ive talked to say to never do that. Your tiles and or grout will crack eventually

Im tiling my kitchen this weekend I can let you know how well the ditra worked for me.

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