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Old 12-27-2008, 11:06 PM   #16
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metal left in hardwood floor sealer


No, neither one of those. The bottle was plastic, beige, almost peach in color and round, like the bottles vinegar come in.

He said that he was putting the catalyst in the final coat to make it stronger, like he would use in a professional building that gets more traffic. He did not put catalyst in the first two applications. He also did not put the catalyst in the stuff that he used to "fix" the gouges he took out or what he left with us.

The first coats went on fine and dried well. I even stenciled between coats 2 and 3. When the stencil was dry, I put some of the sealer on with a poly brush with no problem and it dried quickly.
Humm... come to think about it, I called my husband to bring sandpaper because there was something in the floor where I was stenciling. Wish I looked at the floor then.

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Old 12-28-2008, 02:06 AM   #17
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metal left in hardwood floor sealer


The bottom line here is that I can see all kinds of pieces of painter's masking tape on your hardwood floor in front of the stove, but I can't see the defects in the floor finish those pieces of masking tape are there to point out. Me thinks that this floor would look good to the untrained observer even without digging out the worst offenders, such as pieces of steel.

So, what say we dig out the biggest pieces of foreign matter in the existing floor finish with a cheap 1/4 inch wood chisel, and fill those gouges with an alkyd based polyurethane, and see how the floor looks after that.

Most probably, it'll look fine. Even without sanding the floor down and putting another top coat of waterborne catalyzed whatever over top of it.

?
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Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 12-28-2008 at 02:09 AM.
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Old 12-28-2008, 07:39 AM   #18
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metal left in hardwood floor sealer


I was reading your posts, and had a thought!. would it be wise to rent a floor buffer (as the ones used in schools) with a coarse scotch bright pad on the bottom, do the whole floor with , changing to finer pads as you go. vacuum the floor and go over it with a tack cloth. then install your finish. BOB
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Old 12-28-2008, 05:18 PM   #19
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BuletBob:

They do use "Floor Machines" to sand the polyurethane off hardwood floors. They use a sanding disk turned by a high productivity pad. But, the problem is a bit more involved than what you're presuming.

1. There are all kinds of bits and pieces of other things in the floor finish; pieces of steel wool, pieces of some dark stuff, etc. The floor wasn't cleaned well immediately prior to putting the finish down. The owner is willing to dig out these bits and pieces on her own, but the problem then becomes filling in the gouges where the foreign material was removed.

2. The floor has a catalyzed waterborne polyurethane as the top coat, but filling in all the gouges with that stuff would be kinda difficult; she'd have to measure off tiny quantities of the prepolymer and mix in even tinier quantities of the catalyst to mix into it, and then use that to fill in the gouges with an eye dropper. Regular oil based polyurethane would be easier to do that with because you don't have to measure tiny amounts of catalyst for a 1/4 fluid ounce of prepolymer.

3. And, then after filling in those gouges with whatever, there's going to be all kinds of filled gouges all over the floor so it won't look smooth anymore, and so we're talking about sanding the whole floor down and giving it a new top coat.

Just sanding the whole floor down with a floor machine would certainly allow us to put on another coat, but it won't get the pieces of steel wool and stuff out of the existing finish, and it won't eliminate the gouges we make to get those bits and pieces out... ...unless we sand the finish completely off, which is what we're trying to avoid having to do.
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Old 12-29-2008, 05:52 AM   #20
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Nester, Yes I completely understand the situation. I was thinking the buffer not the floor sander would be more DIY friendly for the owner. using the different grit scotch brite pads. until the finish was removed, but now I,m thinking that the debree is encapsulated in the hard finish. It was just a thought. I have seen them use this buffing process between coats with vacuuming. Good luck. and great post replies Nester. bob
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:31 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by buletbob View Post
Nester, Yes I completely understand the situation. I was thinking the buffer not the floor sander would be more DIY friendly for the owner. using the different grit scotch brite pads. until the finish was removed, but now I,m thinking that the debree is encapsulated in the hard finish. It was just a thought. I have seen them use this buffing process between coats with vacuuming. Good luck. and great post replies Nester. bob
Thanks for trying, Bob, but if there were an easy way to get the debris out of the finish and then restore a smooth surface to the floor, we'd have prolly thought of it by now. (but, people don't come in here to post questions they can answer themselves )

However, your idea of using a floor machine to smooth down the surface of the floor after repairing the gouges is a good one.

Sanding with a floor machine, as you see here:



is actually done with a sanding screen. You mount something called a "high productivity pad" and the sanding screen together on the machine, and it's that high productivity pad with it's really aggressive bristles that grips and turns the sanding disk. The high productivity pad, which is normally only used to strip off old floor finish, would just scratch up the polyurethane if used alone. A less aggressive pad, like a black pad would scrub the surface of the polyurethane and remove it very slowly, BUT it would remove the bumps on the surface if any (IMHO) and give the surface "tooth" so the next coat would adhere better.

So, digging out the pieces of debris with a 1/4 inch chisel, refilling the gouges with alkyd based polyurethane, scraping those repairs down closer to flush with the floor, scrubbing the floor down with a black pad, vaccuuming (and perhaps mopping up with a sponge mop) and then putting on another coat of finish over the whole floor would be the game plan I'm looking at.

Operating a floor machine isn't as easy as it looks, tho. The motor is balancing on a rotating pad, and you "steer" the machine by raising and lowering the handle. The higher and higher you raise the handle, the more the center of gravity of the machine is resting on one side of the rotating pad or the other, and the faster and faster the machine wants to move in the opposite direction. That's because the side of the pad that the center of gravity is over will grip the floor slightly better than the opposite side of the pad, causing a NET force on the machine that propells it one way or the other.

Home Depot does rent floor machines, but it does take a little practice to feel comfortable using one. Nothing that a DIY'er couldn't master in an hour or two, tho. Any company listed under "Janitorial Services" could also do this work for the homeowner.
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:04 PM   #22
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metal left in hardwood floor sealer


My husband has a belt sander and an orbital sander....
can I use either one of those?
Really, I'd rather do it by hand so I have control. Is it possible? I'll just be roughing up the surface a little, right?
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Old 12-30-2008, 08:03 PM   #23
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metal left in hardwood floor sealer


Orbital sander would work. You just want to sand any repairs flat after refilling the gouge with polyurethane, and scuff up the rest of the surface to give it "tooth" so that the new coat of polyurethane sticks better.

That's about the best gameplan I can think of for fixing the finish without doing it over completely.

Maybe run it by some of the hardwood flooring contractors in your area to see if they see anything wrong with it.

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Old 01-01-2009, 01:38 AM   #24
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Thank you Nestor, that's a plan but it will have to wait until the end of Janurary, beginning of February to do. I'll let you know how it works out.
thanks again
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Old 01-06-2009, 03:11 PM   #25
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metal left in hardwood floor sealer


Update.
The contractor called to make good. He did do a nice job fixing the damaged floor so... I told him I would go over the whole floor, pick out the metal and fill and he would come back in March or later to rebuff and put down another coat.
We have the woodstove going right now so the floor has shrunk and I want to wait until it's warmer out to fix so I can open the windows and not use up a whole tank of oil.
I know I said I didn't trust him to come back but I believe he will fix it right. You know he will make sure there isn't a speck on the floor before sealing this time.
Thanks again for your help and ideas!!!
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:43 AM   #26
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metal left in hardwood floor sealer


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Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
Those metal pieces don't look like a difficult problem to me. Also, I see no reason whatever to refinish the whole floor. This is a relatively easy DIY project in my opinion.

I would just buy a tungsten carbide paint scraper, like the 2 inch one available from Lee Valley shown here:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...90,43040,43041

And just gouge out those pieces of metal carefully with the corner of the blade. Be careful not to gouge into the wood. Leave a piece of masking tape near every place you remove a piece of metal because after the first coat of Wiping polyurethane, you won't be able to find those places easily without the aid of a bright light held close to the floor to make even small depressions in the floor look like Meteor Crater. The masking tape will tell you where to look, and the bright light near the floor will help you find those spots again.

I like these Sandvik scrapers because they're sharp enough to scrape effectively and hard enough to gouge plastics like polyurethane, but they're not sharp enough to cut into wood or paper unintentionally. They are more prone to scratch if you use the corner of the blade, but as long as you're careful in gouging out the polyurethane containing the metal, you shouldn't have problems with gouges in the wood.

Then, after you get the pieces of metal out, then use an eye dropper to fill each spot with Wiping polyurethane. Get the kind with the curved tip at any pharmacy so you can see the fluid level better. Wipe-on poly is a polyurethane that's made using a smaller prepolymer so it's not as viscous as regular brush-on polyurethane, and therefore self levels to a smooth finish on it's own. It's intended to be applied with a rag damp with the stuff, but in your case you only need to apply it to tiny areas, so, in my view, it would be better to apply it with an eye dropper and then just let it dry out. (maybe put a dixie cup or something over each spot so you know not to step on that spot cuz there's wet poly there)

oil based wipe-on poly:
http://www.minwax.com/products/oil_b...e_on_poly.html

water based wipe-on poly:
http://www.minwax.com/products/water...e_on_poly.html

You don't need to go with Minwax. Anyone's water or oil based wipe-on poly will do.

If you know whether or not the top coat on your floor is water based or oil based, use the same kind of wipe-on polyurethane.

And, when applying the polyurethane, do it with a bright light on the floor to cast light at a shallow angle over the area. This will allow you to find the depressions in the floor you're filling and to see the surface of the liquid you're applying with the eye dropper to tell if it's below, at, or above the level of the surrounding floor. The poly will shrink as the solvents evaporate out of it, so you want the poly to be above the level of the surrounding floor initially, but progressively less so as the hole fills with poly and you're just filling in the shrinkage.

If your repaired areas start to look kinda rough because each application of poly with the eye dropper results in the poly being applied to and drying in different areas, then just build up the area with eye dropper applications, wait until it's dry and scrape it down smooth with the paint scraper, and then apply the wipe-on poly over the larger scraped area with a Q-tip.

Run some paint thinner and out of the eye dropper a few times between poly applications to wash the poly out of the eye dropper.

The repairs should be near invisible because the refractive index of the wipe-on polyurethane is going to be so very close to whatever clear coat he used on your floor. Where the refractive index of two materials are the same, there will be no reflection of light from the interface between those two materials. So, if there's no light reflected from the rough surface you've filled in with Wipe on poly, you will not see any light reflected from that rough surface. The only light you will see will be reflected from the smooth surface of the meniscus of the poly on top.

That's why after the first application of poly you'll have a harder time finding the areas you gouged the metal out of because there won't be the white light reflecting from a rough surface anymore to reveal the location of the areas you gouged. You'll just see light reflected off a smooth surface, thereby camoflaging the repaired area.

Maybe try one repair in an inconspicuous place and see how it goes.

I use this technique to repair the finish on vinyl composition tile floors when I notice a stain or something on the floor tiles AFTER I've coated them with acrylic floor finish. I'd use acrylic floor finish instead of wipe on polyurethane, but the principle and repair procedure are exactly the same.

PS: You CAN simply gouge out the metal pieces and then paint over the gouged area with Wipe-On poly using a Q-tip, too. The repairs will be near invisible after the first coat of poly regardless of whether it's applied with an eye dropper or a Q-tip. Using an eye dropper to refill the gouge with finish is just intended to get the floor flush again. Truth be known, if you just painted those gouged areas with a Q-tip, they would be equally hard to see. They'd just be small depressions in the floor that you'd have to look hard to find.
Nestor i think you have no idea what u talking about, you can used water base over oil base finished only after its fully cured, not the way around . If the finished was water base you can not used oil base on it. It wont hold.
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Old 06-16-2012, 07:29 AM   #27
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metal left in hardwood floor sealer


Nestor hasn't been here in years. I doubt he cares. This thread is over 3 years old, ya know.

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