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-   -   Laying tile over vinyl (http://www.diychatroom.com/f5/laying-tile-over-vinyl-167923/)

Walker88 01-01-2013 08:57 AM

Laying tile over vinyl
 
Hello, i am new here.. an have a few questions..

I would like to replace the flooring in my kitchen and dinning area with tile. I live in Michigan in a mobile home built in the 1980's.. Recently just purchased.. I am in the process of updating and i would like to update my 1980s flooring.



I was wondering if i could just do this guys style and lay down the tile over vinyl. http://www.ronhazelton.com/projects/...vinyl_flooring
My floor is very solid no peels no tears and no lifts, seems to be pretty level for the most part. I have read on many sites not to do this.. But with this guys laying down the fabric and cementing it adds the strength i need?. now my plans are to remodel (update) and then sell it to buy a house. Now i could probably go a cheaper route and do like stick vinyl or wood flooring, but personal i think the tile gives a home an nice modern style an wont make it feel like a mobile home (trailer).

thanks..

p.s dont be to harsh on me.. im new to this :thumbup::thumbup:

joecaption 01-01-2013 09:05 AM

Not a great plan, going over vinyl is tricky enough, add in it's going in a mobile home and I just do not see this working out for very long.
To much flex, most likly all you have for a subfloor is partical board, there may be 1/4 underlaymant, both of which are not exceptable under tile.
What would work is a linolium that looks like tile or even a laminite floor with a tile pattern.
Do not even think about peel and stick tiles!!

Frattman 01-01-2013 10:19 AM

If the floor is in good shape, without any squeaks or deflection, you can staple and nail wire mesh on top of the vinyl, skim coat the mesh, and tile on top of that. The wire mesh is superior to this other system you posted, as it mechanically fastens to the floor (so you're not relying on the existing linoleum glue for the only attachment to the sub-floor). Make sure you get that wire mesh nice and flat.

I've used this method dozens of times to good effect, and I've seen floors my uncle has tiled 25 years ago in this manner hold up perfectly well.

rusty baker 01-01-2013 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frattman (Post 1083876)
If the floor is in good shape, without any squeaks or deflection, you can staple and nail wire mesh on top of the vinyl, skim coat the mesh, and tile on top of that. The wire mesh is superior to this other system you posted, as it mechanically fastens to the floor (so you're not relying on the existing linoleum glue for the only attachment to the sub-floor). Make sure you get that wire mesh nice and flat.

I've used this method dozens of times to good effect, and I've seen floors my uncle has tiled 25 years ago in this manner hold up perfectly well.

Most tile pros will tell you that this is a bad idea. And mobile home floors usually have too much flex for ceramic. Where's Jaz? And I have never met a tile pro who like Tavy.

Walker88 01-01-2013 03:24 PM

ok but from my understanding.. after i lay that fabric down, cement over it, it will harden and then there will be no flex???

rusty baker 01-01-2013 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walker88 (Post 1084065)
ok but from my understanding.. after i lay that fabric down, cement over it, it will harden and then there will be no flex???

Not true. Wait for Jaz or Oh' Mike, they are tile experts. They do it for a living.

oh'mike 01-01-2013 05:32 PM

Any mobile home or double wide that I have seen has had to weak of a floor system for ceramic tile----

Only once have I installed ceramic in a double wide and there was an understanding with the customer that the tile would very likely fail---(small bathroom)

I did add extra plywood and 1/4" wonder board ,but I figured it would fail eventually---
For better or for worse--they are no longer living there so I will never know.

I suggest you do not attempt tile---and definitely not over old sheet vinyl--

JazMan 01-01-2013 11:16 PM

Walker,

As mentioned already, mobile homes are not a good bet for ceramic tiles. The framing is usually 24" on center, and subfloor the cheapest 5/8" particleboard or MDF they can find. Way too much flex.

Mr Tavy's methods are not accepted by any testing organization I'm familiar of. He's become a DIYer's hack promotor. In theory it could work if the structure was good, (yours isn't), but it's all dependent on the vinyl tiles staying stuck. I will bet if you checked carefully some of your tiles are not stuck well or would come up easily.

Likewise the method that Frattman suggested is a bad nethod. It's known as "scratch-coat" and Jersey-Mud job". That method is most common is parts of the East Coast and parts of Canada. It's used when saving $$$ if job #1. Many that use this method do so to win the job away from another using a different and approved proven method. They might charge a dollar less a foot, (it's worth maybe (2-3 less). This method has been tested many times and has always failed. It may work 80% of the time though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walker88
ok but from my understanding.. after i lay that fabric down, cement over it, it will harden and then there will be no flex???

Where did you hear that?

Jaz

jeffnc 01-02-2013 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazMan (Post 1084371)
Mr Tavy's methods are not accepted by any testing organization I'm familiar of.

I like this quote from that link: "All of the worries that come with installing tile over vinyl, have literally been covered up."

That I can believe :-)

Anyway, I'd trust a system like Mapei's before I'd trust Tavy's.
http://www.mapei.it/public/COM/produ...ath_TDS_EA.pdf

Bud Cline 01-02-2013 03:21 PM

Quote:

Walker88: "I have read on many sites not to do this..."
And still you come here looking for someone to agree with your unproven approach.

It appears you are only reading-into this project what YOU want to.

1. Ceramic tile in mobile homes has never worked. Maybe some modular homes but never a mobile home.

2. The "scratch-coat method" has been proven by the tile industry not to work over and over and over again. It has been tested many times and it has failed each time.

3. Armand Tavy? Well what can I say about Mr. Tavy. His methods too, haven been proven not to work. Tavy products are nothing more than a low-ballers ideas of how to do something. His products are not flying off the shelves.

4. Installing ceramic tile over vinyl is also poo-poohed by the tile installation industry, it isn't a good idea.

5. For a "cement system" to begin to carry the installation the cement would have to be a minimum of 1-1/4" thick and then it must be installed over an adequate structure - yours is not an adequate structure.

I'd stay with a new vinyl tile.:)

Frattman 01-03-2013 06:35 AM

2. The "scratch-coat method" has been proven by the tile industry not to work over and over and over again. It has been tested many times and it has failed each time. (sorry, I don't know how to quote)

I'll admit that I've never tiled a mobile home, and maybe you guys know better than I if this is a bad idea, but I have never once seen a scratch coat floor fail. I have ripped up perhaps two dozen floors of ceramic, slate, marble etc. . laid on top of wire mesh and tar paper all varying in age from 10 to 40 years old (and purely for aesthetic reasons). No cracks, no grout popping, in great shape. It is not cheaper, and certainly not easier to put wire down compared to backer board. For 40 years this method has worked for my grandfather, 30 for my uncle, and 11 for me (I use it when height is an issue). I've personally seen floors tiled by my grandfather and uncle decades ago that are in perfect shape.

I'd like to know how many scratch coat floors you guys have laid, or seen fail, and your theories as to the discrepancy between our experiences with this method.

Bud Cline 01-03-2013 08:42 AM

Quote:

I'd like to know how many scratch coat floors you guys have laid, or seen fail, and your theories as to the discrepancy between our experiences with this method.
Say what you will in an attempt to defend yourself and your methods. The comments about "failure" of this method are not "theory". This method has been tested repeatedly in an effort to sanction it and it has failed repeatedly. If you could show us where this method appears in the Tile Council of North America's Handbook for Ceramic, Glass, and Stone Tile Installation, it would be appreciated.

Not sure that anyone using the method would come here and publicly talk about his past failures.

:yes:
Quote:

I have ripped up perhaps two dozen floors of ceramic, slate, marble etc. . laid on top of wire mesh and tar paper all varying in age from 10 to 40 years old
:yes:

joecaption 01-03-2013 08:52 AM

I personaly have had to rip out at least three, all were in bathrooms.
All had leaked for so long there was floor joist, and wall stud damage.

Walker88 01-03-2013 09:09 AM

well MR bud cline.

i came to this site asking for info on if tavys designs will work. as i stated i am new to this.

an yes i am reading into the project that I want to do.( but i am reading how it should be done)

Now remember i stated i live in a mobile double wide. I was just looking at laying over the vinyl because i don't have alot of cash to rebuilding sub floors and so on, so yes maybe i am looking to save a few $$$ and not to mention my floors is the rolled out vinyl and that can be a pain to pull up. (no problems if need to be).. also laminate flooring can be expensive, so by doing laminate i will be spending just much money as i would probably rebuilding my sub flooring an tiles.

jeffnc 01-03-2013 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Cline (Post 1085180)
This method has been tested repeatedly in an effort to sanction it and it has failed repeatedly.

What do you think about Mapelath?


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