Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Flooring

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-29-2013, 05:52 PM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 59
Rewards Points: 43
Default

Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade


Our current floor is deteriorating. I need advice on how to renovate a kitchen floor that currently has slanted subfloor on 16" centers (2x6.. As I can remember from when I was under the house). I know if we plan reno, I will sister all the joists from end to end, just t give the floor the stability; whether or not we move to ceramic tile.

Every bit of info on the web is different.

Once I rip out the vinyl tiles and this particle underlay, I'll most likely have to replace the sub floor slats too. (Water damage). Is it best to rip it all out and lay plywood? T&G plywood? Or for greater stability, install plywood over the existing sub? I'm certain this would get installed into the joists.

Say we went ceramic now? I'm certain I float the cement back board? Or does it get a mortar sandwich? I realize the porcelain will get the mortar, but does the cement board need it when it goes down onto the plywood? That is, if I even need the plywood.

I guess my biggest questions are:
- Rip out the subfloor with its condition and instal T&G, or just on top of the slanted sub?
- Backer board goes down with or without the mud?

Thanks
Attached Thumbnails
Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade-image.jpg  

altc81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 06:51 PM   #2
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hartfield VA
Posts: 27,015
Rewards Points: 3,146
Default

Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade


I sure hope you have more then 2 X 6's for floor joist unless there only running less then about 6' feet.
Your post is very confusing to me.
Your talking about floor joist in one place and a slab in another back up and tell us what it is you have there.
If I had trim in the condition yours is in I would remove it all and trash it before doing anything to the floors. It's not worth the time to strip and would make it easier to remove some of the old flooring.
Got to figure out why the floor is sagging and unlevel and fix that before working on the top side.
Failing foundation, cracked joist, insect infestation, water damage ECT.

__________________
When posting in forums, letting us know your location will help others give better feedback/advice/solutions to your questions
joecaption is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 07:11 PM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 59
Rewards Points: 43
Default

Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade


Quote:
Originally Posted by joecaption View Post
I sure hope you have more then 2 X 6's for floor joist unless there only running less then about 6' feet.
Your post is very confusing to me.
Your talking about floor joist in one place and a slab in another back up and tell us what it is you have there.
If I had trim in the condition yours is in I would remove it all and trash it before doing anything to the floors. It's not worth the time to strip and would make it easier to remove some of the old flooring.
Got to figure out why the floor is sagging and unlevel and fix that before working on the top side.
Failing foundation, cracked joist, insect infestation, water damage ECT.
Ok, so maybe they are 2 X 8's. Doesn't really make a difference in my question.

I never said I have slab, it's raised.

I plan to rip out the trim... It's going to be a major kitchen upgrade. I'm also going to tip out the vinyl squares with the underlay board.

No sagging, no insect, no cracked joist. Water damage to some areas of the slats of the sub. That's why I'm asking if I should just replace the damaged ones, or rip them all out and lay plywood.

My questions are directly asking about the standards for the layers.. Not correcting the joists. I'm already going to brace them because I'm laying ceramic on a 10' span.
altc81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 10:07 PM   #4
Tileguy
 
JazMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 4,071
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade


OK, so Joe misunderstood because you said you have a "slanted subfloor" and called the planks (subfloor) slats. I think he thought you meant to write slab.

After you get rid of those vinyl asbestos tiles and any underlayment installed on the subfloor, you can then evaluate its condition and decide which way to go. It'll probably be easiest to replace the damaged planks and install a suitable underlayment and then tile backer etc. If the planks are too far gone then remove and install a plywood subfloor.

But you gotta start with the joists. You said 2x6 or 2x8 doesn't matter. Oh yes it does, you know that. Please let us know and someone will consult a span chart. Type, size, spacing and span of the joists down to the inch. The species and grade would be nice and also tell us their condition. I know you said you're gonna sister the joists, that's good.

Jaz
__________________
Tile 4 You LLC Troy, MI

DITRA Installs - KERDI Watertight-Mold-Free Showers. I have NEVER made a mistake, I thought I did ONCE, but, I was WRONG! A+ BBB rating - est. 1987 - over 50 yrs. exp.
JazMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 10:22 PM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 59
Rewards Points: 43
Default

Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade


Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan View Post
OK, so Joe misunderstood because you said you have a "slanted subfloor" and called the planks (subfloor) slats. I think he thought you meant to write slab.

After you get rid of those vinyl asbestos tiles and any underlayment installed on the subfloor, you can then evaluate its condition and decide which way to go. It'll probably be easiest to replace the damaged planks and install a suitable underlayment and then tile backer etc. If the planks are too far gone then remove and install a plywood subfloor.

But you gotta start with the joists. You said 2x6 or 2x8 doesn't matter. Oh yes it does, you know that. Please let us know and someone will consult a span chart. Type, size, spacing and span of the joists down to the inch. The species and grade would be nice and also tell us their condition. I know you said you're gonna sister the joists, that's good.

Jaz
Jaz. Thanks! That's a little more of a passive response. Thank you. I felt like the initial person commenting was a little agressive! Whew!

Ok to settle the concern, they are 2x8, 16 centers with a 10'2" span. I actually went under to evaluate. No cracks, sagging, rot, water damage. Only the planks under the fridge and under the washing machine are soft and rotting. Everything else is dry.

Now again, I do want porcelain, so I do know I need to strengthen the joists. I believe the only way I'll get sisters under there is to remove the planks anyways. So removing all of them and laying T&G is probably ideal. Does plywood disperse weight well? It seems like the planks would distribute weight at the 45 degree off the joists pretty well. Ok so what's next guys?
altc81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 10:48 PM   #6
Tileguy
 
JazMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 4,071
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade


2x8 joists of most species and grade #2, spanning 10' 2" is not over-spanning. How does the floor feel? It might feel a little bouncy because the planks need to be refastened. My first choice would be to repair the bad ones and then install min. 1/2" underlayment plywood.

BUT if you're gonna sister the joists, it'll probably be easier to rip the subfloor and sister from above instead of below....right? So in that case I'd rip the planks and install 3/4" ply or OSB subfloor. Be sure it says something like exposure 1 for moisture control. You might also want to add a second sheet of ply, 3/8" min. Then go with 1/4" tile backer or better yet Ditra, then the tiles.

Jaz
__________________
Tile 4 You LLC Troy, MI

DITRA Installs - KERDI Watertight-Mold-Free Showers. I have NEVER made a mistake, I thought I did ONCE, but, I was WRONG! A+ BBB rating - est. 1987 - over 50 yrs. exp.
JazMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 11:15 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 59
Rewards Points: 43
Default

Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade


I'm assuming the initial ply or OSB would be installed direct to joists. If I did a second ply or OSB, that would be fastened to the first layer, or even more so, float? Or could also be fastened to joists? I'm liking the Ditra process. I was just thinking the hardi back would give me the rigidity I wanted.

To answer your Q about wanting the support from the joists... Maybe I'm noticing the bouncy floor from the fact that the vinyl tiles and particle underlay is hovering above the subfloor. We do have the washing machine in the kitchen as well. So quite a bit of vibration, so the more solid the floor, the better. Right?
altc81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2013, 07:22 AM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hartfield VA
Posts: 27,015
Rewards Points: 3,146
Default

Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade


The First layer is called the subfloor, if you remove the old subflooring totally you need to use construction adhesive on top of the joist and use #8 ring shank nails every 6" to attach the new subflooring to the joist.
If you just go over the old subflooring with new underlayment it does not get nailed to the joist, no glue needed. It gets nailed every 4" on the edges and every 6 to 8" in the field.
Use underlayment rated plywood for the second layer, no thinner then 3/8. No CDX! It's full of voids in the core.
Tile backer adds 0 strength to the floor.
If you go with hardi back it needs a bed of thin set under it.
No part of a wood subfloor or underlayment should ever float. Any flex in the floor and the grout and tile will fail.
__________________
When posting in forums, letting us know your location will help others give better feedback/advice/solutions to your questions
joecaption is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2013, 06:30 PM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 59
Rewards Points: 43
Default

Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade


Would I lay the second layer of ply 90 degree to the initial subfloor? This is if I remove all the planks, sister joists, and fasten the subfloor to the joists. Can I use screws instead of nails? I don't want any room for error and end up with loosening nails or squeaks.

Got it on the hardback adding zero stability. Good info. I assumed it would absorb shock or vibration from washing machine at least. I'll probably go the Ditra underlay route. Seems fashionable and functional off course.

When sistering joists, what seems to be the general consensus on the standard. I've read everything from nailing to bolting.

I appreciate all advice. I can easily execute a project such as this. I usually just need guidance in the planing and protocol.
altc81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2013, 09:34 PM   #10
Tileguy
 
JazMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 4,071
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade


I disagree with one thing our friend Joe mentioned. 3/8" underlayment over planks is not thick enough, gotta be at least 1/2".

Plywood sheets are always installed perpendicular to the joists, the same as the subfloor. The underlayment edges need to be offset both ways from the subfloor. I recommend about a 2' offset. And, as Joe said, fasten the underlayment only to the subfloor, not the joists too. To be safe use fasteners that are slightly longer than the two sheets. Screws are great, just not cheapo drywall screws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by altc81
When sistering joists, what seems to be the general consensus on the standard. I've read everything from nailing to bolting.
Nailing is not so good. Screw or bolt. Be sure to check for flatness as sistering is the perfect time to tweak and correct. Use a long straight edge.

How old is this house. any sagging in the span of the joists?

Jaz
__________________
Tile 4 You LLC Troy, MI

DITRA Installs - KERDI Watertight-Mold-Free Showers. I have NEVER made a mistake, I thought I did ONCE, but, I was WRONG! A+ BBB rating - est. 1987 - over 50 yrs. exp.
JazMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2013, 03:08 PM   #11
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 59
Rewards Points: 43
Default

Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade


There really is no obvious sagging of the joists. I'm certain I can make better calls once I remove the bubbling vinyl tiles and particle underlay. I do have my 6' level handy.

I'd feel bolting would be the route to go. Easily go all the way and while it might be a little more work and costly, but I don't mind. Where can I find best practices for sistering/standards? Size, spacing, practices for species, etc
altc81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2013, 03:10 PM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 59
Rewards Points: 43
Default

Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade


Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan View Post

How old is this house. any sagging in the span of the joists?

Jaz
House was built in 1956. I'm in SoCal inland valley, not coastal.
altc81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2013, 08:05 PM   #13
Tileguy
 
JazMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Troy, Michigan
Posts: 4,071
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Kitchen Floor Major Upgrade


I think it's a good idea to jack up the joist about 1/8" if possible while sistering so it'll actually help support. The sister does not have to be the same width as the joists. Even 3/4" plywood glued and screwed works in tight spaces. The center 1/3 of the span is the most critical if you can't sister the entire length.

Jaz

__________________
Tile 4 You LLC Troy, MI

DITRA Installs - KERDI Watertight-Mold-Free Showers. I have NEVER made a mistake, I thought I did ONCE, but, I was WRONG! A+ BBB rating - est. 1987 - over 50 yrs. exp.
JazMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My new kitchen needs a facelift (oak cabinets have to stay) EclecticMom Interior Decorating 3 02-12-2012 09:45 PM
Project floor plan for Kitchen and Bath Snav Kitchen & Bath Remodeling 0 01-25-2010 10:51 AM
Kitchen reno, any better suggestions? mgarfield Remodeling 7 01-20-2010 03:37 PM
Crane two handle kitchen deck faucets Nestor_Kelebay Plumbing 1 06-23-2009 08:28 AM
New floor/subfloor in kitchen. Need ideas DanBress Flooring 3 10-20-2008 08:31 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.