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Old 02-23-2012, 08:00 PM   #1
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


Hi,

We had a 24x24 tile installed by a pro, and even though our floor was really off (as much as 3/4") the installer did a good job with 1/16" grout lines and a very level finish. We have had to rip off the tiles due to a defect in the tiles and the tile store is replacing the tiles with new ones. They are not covering the install though. The installer is an old school italian installer, so he installed it the way they do it in italy using spots of glue. After removing all the tiles, the floor looks like the pic attached. There is an existing tile which is skimcoated before starting to lay the new one and a sandcoat underneath. The extra weight concerns me a little, but a few people told me it's fine. It's about 1100ft2. My joists are 2x10s every 12" and my longest span is 15" which gave me a deflecto of L/433. Other parts of the area are L/700+

The installer's plan was to fill all the voids with a mix of sand/concrete and then just trowel install since it's all level already. Does this sound right and solid? I know many have told me that spot method id no good, so now I have to come to a solution.

I really wanted to avoid ripping off everything to the old tile and starting over again because a lot of leveling work and glue/mortar has gone into this. Also because I have spent so much $$ on this and now would have to repay to install was thinking of doing it myself since all is nice and leveled. If I were to rip it all off, I would have to relevel and because it was so off, I don't think I could handle it myself and would need a complete sandcoat or SLC which costs a mint.

I know you guys can't see it physically, but would really appreciate the help. This is causing a lot of issues for my family and would like to get my wife/kids into our new house.

Thanks
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:08 PM   #2
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


I've never seen or heard of anyone installing tiles like that.
Tile needs 100% full contact and voids would sound hollow and leave room for the tile to flex and crack agin.

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Old 02-23-2012, 09:59 PM   #3
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


That is known as the "spot" method. Sometimes it's 5 spot sometimes 9 depending on the size of the tiles. It's a very common solution to aid when installing large tiles on a substrate that is not perfectly flat. But on a wall, you hate to do it on a floor, and shouldn't.

The installer probably had no choice with those monster sized tiles. Well, he could have ripped everything and start over, but the homeowner usually doesn't want to pay the cost of that............so.

Quote:
The installer's plan was to fill all the voids with a mix of sand/concrete and then just trowel install since it's all level already.
What mix specifically? Sand/concrete is deck mud and that will not work. I see no reason to fill those voids as a separate step, why not just trowel new thin set as you set the new tiles?

You may want to consider tile leveling aids such as Tuscan or Lash.

The added weight may not cause a failure, but it's way over the recommended limit. You're adding a lot of "dead" weight, could sag down the road.

You said the longest span is 15", you meant 15' right? Do you know the species and grade? That figure (L433), applies for SYP or Douglas Fir grade 2 at 50/20 live/dead load. Your dead load is way more than 20 lbs. making that info wrong.

Jaz
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:12 PM   #4
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


yes I meant 15' sorry. I don't know the species or grade of the joists. I am in canada and house was built in the mid 90s if that helps at all. anyway i could check myself?

I have no idea how to calculate the weight already on it. Had I known the installer would of needed to add so much cement/mortar i would considered ripping out the old layer of tile and sandcoat also and starting from new as i have lost a good 1.5"-2" of height on ceiling. The installer started doing spots using Custom build products Granite and MArble modified medium bed, but as we got to needing 3/4"+ to bring level he used a mix of sand/cement mix in combination to the medium bed.

I had another two tile guys come over and see the job and I felt like they were both pushing me to remove it all and start fresh but could not give me a good enough reason to than beside the weight or that the guy could take off the spot if he used his hammer and chisel. wouldn't any spot come off if hit with a hammer and chisel? I felt like they were trying to get more $$ out of me.

We have been through a nightmare with this tile situation and would hate to redo it and need a complete redo a third time.
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Old 02-25-2012, 03:35 PM   #5
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


any others care to comment please?
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:51 PM   #6
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


Quote:
any others care to comment please?
It would be helpful if you would answer the un-answered questions yourself.

Also is it possible to add a beam at roughly mid-span of the joists?

Jaz
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:02 AM   #7
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


adding a beam on that side is not really possible because of HVAC vents I thought of this before but could not come to a solution.

So if i rip it all off (the spots, I mean) and re-tile over the old tile with 24x24, does it have to be 100% flat? is 24x24 much harder to do than 12x12? I have done 12x12 and 18x18 but never 24x24
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Old 02-26-2012, 09:16 AM   #8
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


Yes is has to be flat within 1/8" in 10 ft. of plane. I worry about all the weight and why I asked about a beam or how about building a wall under there?

More later gotta run.

Jaz
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Old 02-26-2012, 07:15 PM   #9
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


How flat is the old ceramic tile floor underneath? I know you said the new floor was raised as much as 3/4" in some areas, but was that to make it level or flat? None of those dots looked that thick in the pics.

I've also been following your thread at JB's forum. From everything I've read I would consider leaving the dots since you said they are very well bonded, and with the dots the floor is very flat. I would fill with latex patch or self leveling and once dry I would tile over the new base.

24" are nice, but a real pain. How about 18-20"? The floor still needs to be very flat, but it'll be easier for you.

The only problem is the weight. There must be something you can do underneath. How about a partial wall or beam with posts? Or, it's not that hard to drop the sheet metal, instal a support, then put the ducts back.

Jaz
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:14 PM   #10
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


in the worst spots, where the floor was the most off we were averaging one 50lb granite/marble med bed mixed with one 66lb sand/cement for every 30ft2. This averages out to 3.8lbs per ft2. plus about 12lbs per tile of 4ft2 which is almost 8lbs per ft2 on top of the old tile and sandcoat. Now I need to fill in the voids so I would say another 2 lbs per ft2 bringing it to just under 10lbs/ft2. Is this way too much? am i calculating it right?
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:27 AM   #11
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


a little off topic....are 12x24 tiles much easier to install than 24x24?
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:48 AM   #12
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


Not that much differace. Smaller tiles will be able to go over a floor that's less flat with less chance of cracking. There will also be less noticable areas around the outside walls when you do your final cutting.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:23 PM   #13
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


I agree with Joe. 12x24's will be easier to handle and set, but the floor specs are the same. We sometimes see some lippage problems with large rectangular tiles since it's more likely you'l set them in a running-bond pattern. The reason they cause problems is the large tiles are gonna have some inherent warpage. Even when the tiles are high quality within industry standards there will be warpage.

It is my guess that your floor's "dead" load was over the "book" number suggested by engineers who calculate these things. I can't imagine you floor met even a 20 lb. standard. Remember, basic code is 10 lb. per sq. ft. If you add up all your building materials on the joists, I will bet you're north of 30 lb. perhaps 35 or more. That can cause severe sagging over time.

I'm not an engineer so all I can do is refer to charts and experience. I still don't have all the info asked, like; The species and grade of your joists. What can you do to stiffen the joists. How about a pic from underneath?

Jaz
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:04 PM   #14
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


on one of the joists I saw SPF Killn dried so I think its Spruce-Pine-Fir andc its grade 2.
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Old 02-27-2012, 07:05 PM   #15
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Just ripped out a newly installed floor because of a defect in tiles and need advice!


OK, now at least we have something else to work with.

According to my chart, SPF #2 will be at L360 (max span), at a span of 15'0" and 12" o.c. based on 50 lb. live and 20 lb. dead. If you add 1" or one lb., it's considered over spanned. If the SPF's are from the "South", the max span is only 14'2" to meet L360.

Too much weight for the span my friend.

Jaz

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