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Old 08-19-2012, 04:59 PM   #16
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installing tile for easy removal, without damaging subfloor?


Two hundred and forty square feet is nothing my friend. That's a very small area. It would be challenging by ones self but two guys can do it easily. I can promise you, you don't have what it takes to do a mud bed. Mud beds aren't as easy as they sound.

You (and a friend) can easily mix and pour 240 square feet of SLC in about ninety minutes total time.

You are [again] making way more of this than necessary.

A (deck)-mud bed is not the way to go.

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Old 08-19-2012, 05:15 PM   #17
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installing tile for easy removal, without damaging subfloor?


I'm missing something here... Pex tubbing cased in deck mud?... Why is pex above slab? And why go over it. It's not the fact that you want to change the tile out in the future but will have to take it up when and if you have a leak.

Step one: reroute your plumbing lines.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:46 PM   #18
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installing tile for easy removal, without damaging subfloor?


Bud cline, I read that SLC has to be worked within about 10 minutes. That is that scared me from doing it. For a 90 minute job, do I suppose to mix and spread SLC in layers, or in sections?

Jet Swet, pex above slab because the slab is there and has aged for 50 years. The tubing was for water heating, and not for general tubing.

Alfred in MD
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Old 08-20-2012, 12:11 AM   #19
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installing tile for easy removal, without damaging subfloor?


Typically the SLC products you see at home centers are all (RS) products meaning "Rapid Set". SLC is also available in a non-rapid set formula but you could easily use the rapid set without any problems.

You don't pour it in layers or sections. You pour it in a manner that is sufficient to produce the required depth all at one time, one five gallon batch after another. As you dump the batches it begins to spread on its own but does require a little finessing as you go. You don't screw around once you begin the process. You mix one five gallon bucket after another until the entire area is complete. The batches will [marry] on their own as you pour. You begin deep into an area and back your way out.

You could mix it three bags at a time in a 30 gallon plastic drum but I wouldn't recommend doing that in your case. A single five gallon bucket at a time will work just fine. Each five gallon bucket is going to weigh about sixty pounds and it does get tiring quickly.

The product will spread pretty much on its own but pouring around PEX will cause the product to hesitate here and there hence the "finessing" requirement.

You have about fifteen minutes from the time you pour the product to fuss with it and finesse it. That is more than enough time to do what you have to do. It doesn't set-up in fifteen minutes but after fifteen minutes if you touch it you leave marks that won't plane-out on their own. Room temperature and atmospherics will speed or slow the setting process. You'll be mixing and dumping a batch about every five minutes.

You can also mix the product with ice-water if need be to slow it down but that shouldn't be necessary either.

This is not a big deal and 240 square feet is not a large area. I work with a single helper all of the time without a problem. Hell I have even had my daughters go with me from time to time as second-helpers. If they can do it anyone can.

A compatible primer is required and I would have a (hard) garden rake on hand to finesse with. You use the backbone of the rake not the tines. A rubber floor squeegee will also work but you probably already own a rake.

I'm curious to know how you will attach the PEX to the concrete substrate and why you aren't using an electric system instead of a PEX system?
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:11 PM   #20
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installing tile for easy removal, without damaging subfloor?


Bud Cline, today I calculated the amount of SLC needed and found the cost to be out of my budget. For 240 sqft of 1.5" SLC the cost might be 60 bags of 50LB SLC. I will take another look of deck mud to control the cost.

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Alfred in MD
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:25 PM   #21
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installing tile for easy removal, without damaging subfloor?


Quote:
today I calculated the amount of SLC needed and found the cost to be out of my budget.
And that is the main reason I said this, 3-4 days ago;
Quote:
You should install the pex then have someone place either 'mud' or Gypcrete over the tubes.
I wasn't sure if Bud realized you'd have to pour about 1 1/2" thickness. I knew we'd figure it out in the end. Have you checked the method you're using to confirm you need 1 1/2"?

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Old 08-20-2012, 08:39 PM   #22
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installing tile for easy removal, without damaging subfloor?


Jazman,

Yes I need 1 1/2"。I read that I want 3/4" above the pex tubing。My plan is now very close to your suggestion,and the only difference is that I am going to do the mud thing by myself。It does not look too hard,just mixing and padding。It is labor intensive but inexpensive。

I will post pictures along the way。

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Alfred in MD
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:40 PM   #23
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Odd, I had it estimated at twenty-four bags - thereabouts.

Why on earth would you require 1-1/2 inches? Where is that information coming from?
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:45 PM   #24
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Okay, I see Jaz suggested the 1-1/2" but knowing what I know about your project (so far) I would disagree totally. Maybe I'm missing something.

AGAIN - I'm curious to know how you will attach the PEX to the concrete substrate and why you aren't using an electric system instead of a PEX system?

The heat systems require a "thermal-mass", this being the concrete. Deck mud will not be as efficient in providing that mass as SLC would be.
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:53 PM   #25
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installing tile for easy removal, without damaging subfloor?


PEX 3/8" is all that is required for this type of in-floor heating. A cover of 5/8" (mud) would be sufficient. The thicker the cover the more the environment will cause the cover to challenge the heat production causing greater heat-loss. SLC will have a greater density than deck mud thereby increasing the efficiency of the heat production system.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:37 PM   #26
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installing tile for easy removal, without damaging subfloor?


Bud Cline, the reason why I want pex tubing other than electric system is the low material cost and low cost to run。Natural gas is way cheaper than electric and I guess the trend will continue for decades to come (think of shale gas). There are other favorable conditions too。One is that the slab is adjacent to the water heater in a nearby basement。The other is that the slab is lower than the main floor so additional height is not a problem。SLC might be good to embed electric heaters,but for pex tubing the cost is too much for me。

Best,
Alfred in MD
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:04 PM   #27
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installing tile for easy removal, without damaging subfloor?


Another reason is that the hydronic/pex actually produces heat to warm the room while electric mats only warm the tile. Mats are fine for small areas to keep your tootsies warm.

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Old 08-20-2012, 10:18 PM   #28
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installing tile for easy removal, without damaging subfloor?


How would I tie down the pex tubing to the slab? My plan is to use thin set to install 1/2" wedi board; then I will drill holes through wediboard and thinset into the slab (I drilled a test hole with rotary hammer drill and it looked fine)。Concrete screws with washer will be used to tie down reinforce steel mesh。I will then tie the pex tubing to the mesh。Then I am ready to mix and pad deck mud 。That is the plan so far。

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Old 08-20-2012, 10:42 PM   #29
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installing tile for easy removal, without damaging subfloor?


Alfred,

You said;
Quote:
I am going to do the mud thing by myself。It does not look too hard,just mixing and padding。It is labor intensive but inexpensive。
Sure, it's easy nothing to it.

I sure don't like the Wedi board idea. How you gonna bond the deck mud to the Wedi?

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Old 08-20-2012, 11:44 PM   #30
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installing tile for easy removal, without damaging subfloor?


Wedi board has fiber glass mesh with cement on the surface. I guess cement and cement can bond to each other. If not,then I think the mud bed (with reinforcing mesh) could be thought as floating on the wedi board. I read that when installing mud on ply board, people place tar paper first。So mud does not bond to plywood either. Just my thought. After all, the reinforcing mesh will be screwed to the slab at some points (5 screws per square meters?)

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Alfred in MD

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