Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Flooring

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-03-2005, 10:14 AM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 73
Share |
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


The kitchen floor currently has
thin vinyl tiles
linolium floor
luan
plywood
subfloor
I want to lay new ceramic or porcelain tiles. How much should I pull up ?

Thanks,
Scott

Scott_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2005, 02:25 PM   #2
Member
 
jproffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chester, IL
Posts: 1,296
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


For ceramic or stone, the vinyl, lino, and luan have to go. When you say "plywood, then subfloor" I assume you mean there is 2 layers of plywood on the joists. How thick is the top layer? Also need the joist size and spacing, as well as their general condition. How much offset is there to the adjacent rooms, and which way (step up from kitchen to 'room x', or step down). Also just in case, what is the floor covering in the adjacent rooms, and is it long term, on it's way out, what? All these things will factor in as to your next move, but like I said, in the mean time you can take out the vinyl tiles, the lino, and the luan.

jproffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 09:00 AM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 73
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


Thanks for the response !

Let me back up a little bit. The room use to be two rooms (kitchen and dinning). The partition wall was removed, so now it's one big kitchen. From what I can see (where the wall was removed), it looks like a layer of plywood (not sure how thick, maybe 1/4 ?) and then the subfloor looks like 1x4s laying on top of the joists.

The house was built in the 1940s. I'll have to pulldown some of the basement ceiling to see the joists and spacing. I'm not sure of the condition of them.

As far as the offsets or transitions to other rooms. Currently, they're pretty level with them. Maybe an 1/8" difference. There are those gold metal straps there between the rooms. I was thinking that the thickness of the vinyl, lino and luan would be a little thicker than the ceramics, so the transition to the other rooms wouldn't be too bad when all is done. Is my thinking flawed ? :confused:

The condition of the adjacent living room and hall way are in great shape. Oak floors. Now that I'm thinking about it, I see why you're asking all of these questions.

I'll find out what I'm in for after I get going on pulling up the vinyl/lino/luan.

Thanks again,
Scott
Scott_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 05:03 PM   #4
Member
 
jproffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chester, IL
Posts: 1,296
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


Quote:
Let me back up a little bit. The room use to be two rooms (kitchen and dinning). The partition wall was removed, so now it's one big kitchen. From what I can see (where the wall was removed), it looks like a layer of plywood (not sure how thick, maybe 1/4 ?) and then the subfloor looks like 1x4s laying on top of the joists.

The house was built in the 1940s. I'll have to pulldown some of the basement ceiling to see the joists and spacing. I'm not sure of the condition of them.

As far as the offsets or transitions to other rooms. Currently, they're pretty level with them. Maybe an 1/8" difference. There are those gold metal straps there between the rooms. I was thinking that the thickness of the vinyl, lino and luan would be a little thicker than the ceramics, so the transition to the other rooms wouldn't be too bad when all is done. Is my thinking flawed ?

The condition of the adjacent living room and hall way are in great shape. Oak floors. Now that I'm thinking about it, I see why you're asking all of these questions.

I'll find out what I'm in for after I get going on pulling up the vinyl/lino/luan.
The vinyl, lino, and luan should be about 1/4" total. It would be better, if it's at all possible, to take it all the way down to the 1x4's. Then if they're in good shape (solid, tight with each other, level), put 1/2" concrete backer-board over all that, then your ceramic. That should put you about 1/4" above the original, which isn't terrible. If the height is a real issue you could probably get away with 1/4" backer, but 1/2" would be better.

If there is a utility area or any kind of unfinished area in the basement, it would be much better if you could check the joist size and spacing, otherwise we'll have to assume worst case scenario.

See what you can find out and get back to us, we'll get through it.
jproffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2005, 02:40 PM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 73
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


I'm guessing that it is advisable to take it down to te 1x4s, lay 1/2" backer and then tile because of height concerns.

All of the basement has some paneling on the ceiling. I was planning on pulling it down sometime next year and re-rocking it along with the rest of the basement. What is the significance of the joise size and spacing ? I'm afraid to ask where you're going with this question.:confused:

Was hoping to start pulling up the floor this weekend, but it looks like I have some other things to do first.

Thanks again,
Scott
Scott_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2005, 03:29 PM   #6
Member
 
jproffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chester, IL
Posts: 1,296
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


Quote:
I'm guessing that it is advisable to take it down to te 1x4s, lay 1/2" backer and then tile because of height concerns.
Not necessarily. You can lay 1/4" backer or 1/2" backer, whichever works for height the best. The backerboard's job is to decouple the tile from the framing, to avoid cracking when the house settles, etc. As such, you need to screw the backer ONLY into the 1x4's below and NOT into the joists.(or at least, the smaller # of screws between backer and joists, the better), screwed every 8" in both directions. (I'm getting ahead of myself :o )


Quote:
What is the significance of the joise size and spacing ?
You need to know the joist size, spacing and span to figure the deflection of the floor. For ceramic you need L360 or better. There's a calculator to figure this if you can give the size (nominal..meaning 2x12's, 2x8's, whatever, or if you're not sure give the actual size and we can go from there.). Also need the spacing, on center, and the longest unsupported span in the area to be tiled.


Quote:
I'm afraid to ask where you're going with this question.
Don't worry about it until we find out what you have. Chances are you'll be OK for ceramic, but probably not for natural stone. Even if you don't have L360, if you have your heart set on ceramic, you can do it, you may be regrouting every few years is all, and maybe the occasional replaced tile.


Quote:
Was hoping to start pulling up the floor this weekend, but it looks like I have some other things to do first.
You still can. Get a look at the joists if you can, I'll be back on later tonight and, provided you have an answer for me, I'll have an answer for you by morning :D
jproffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2005, 01:21 AM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Washington
Posts: 72
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


I have done backer for a tiler I know. He likes the hardi backer thinsetted to the floor or countertop and nailed with ringshank nails. This is the best method he likes as I have glued and screwed it and thinset and screwed backer for him.
JustaFramer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2005, 04:49 AM   #8
Member
 
jproffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chester, IL
Posts: 1,296
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


Thinset and screws are what most manufacturers recommend. I'm sure thinset and nails work fine too, just not recommended, and hence voids the warranty, and if ya void the warranty on that, ya void it on the tile and the grout above it too. GLUE and screws????? That's just plain WRONG. Gluing the hardi down is counterproductive to acheiving what the hardi's job is, which is to decouple the tile from the structural members of the floor. Unmodified thinset(which is what I always use to put the backer down) doesn't "stick" to wood.

At any rate, I just hadn't got that far yet with Scott. Looking back, I probably should have put ALL the steps in, just in case someone read this that was farther along than Scott is right now. So for that purpose, here goes:

From joists, moving up:

- Plywood or equivalent (at least 3/4", more would be better, and sometimes necessary depending on joist spacing)
- Hardi/Wonder/Durock, set in unmodified thinset and screwed to JUST the plywood with the screws made for that purpose, screwed every 8 inches in both directions.
- Tile, set in the same unmodified thinset as above. (While unmodified doesn't stick to wood, it does, however, stick to backerboard.)
- Grout
- Seal
- Seal

Seal as often as you think is necessary for the application. Twice is minimum, IMHO

Last edited by jproffer; 08-06-2005 at 04:55 AM.
jproffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2005, 12:04 PM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Washington
Posts: 72
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jproffer
Thinset and screws are what most manufacturers recommend. I'm sure thinset and nails work fine too, just not recommended, and hence voids the warranty, and if ya void the warranty on that, ya void it on the tile and the grout above it too. GLUE and screws????? That's just plain WRONG. Gluing the hardi down is counterproductive to acheiving what the hardi's job is, which is to decouple the tile from the structural members of the floor. Unmodified thinset(which is what I always use to put the backer down) doesn't "stick" to wood.
Actually I never glued to a floor that is wrong. The backer was glued to the sub-countertop. Which created some minor problems with applying the tile. As for the nails product warranty's don't mean ************. It alway falls on the guy who applied it. Well unless it LP and that is another can of worms. Anyway Woody the tile guy guantee's his work and he likes the ring shank nails to screws.
JustaFramer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2005, 12:20 PM   #10
Member
 
jproffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chester, IL
Posts: 1,296
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


Quote:
Actually I never glued to a floor that is wrong.
The OP was talking about a floor, so I assumed we were staying on subject. Countertops are a little different, but the theory is the same. Moving tile = Broken tile, so stop the movement, wherever it's coming from.


Quote:
As for the nails product warranty's don't mean ************.
Then why do they have it in place? If the install was correct, and the product it's self fails, you go back on the manufacturer to recoup your money for redoing it. If the install goes against manufacturer instructions, no matter how insignificant, then you're right, it falls back on the installer. Much like in roofing: If ONE shingle is placed or nailed incorrectly, and there's a leak on the other side of the roof, the warranty is void. But if the install was correct, you go back on the materials (manufacturer).


Quote:
Anyway Woody the tile guy guantee's his work and he likes the ring shank nails to screws.
Well if Woody says so, then it must be OK :D

Last edited by jproffer; 08-06-2005 at 12:24 PM.
jproffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2005, 12:24 AM   #11
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Washington
Posts: 72
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jproffer
The OP was talking about a floor, so I assumed we were staying on subject. Countertops are a little different, but the theory is the same. Moving tile = Broken tile, so stop the movement, wherever it's coming from.
Just referencing experience with backer.

Quote:
Then why do they have it in place? If the install was correct, and the product it's self fails, you go back on the manufacturer to recoup your money for redoing it. If the install goes against manufacturer instructions, no matter how insignificant, then you're right, it falls back on the installer. Much like in roofing: If ONE shingle is placed or nailed incorrectly, and there's a leak on the other side of the roof, the warranty is void. But if the install was correct, you go back on the materials (manufacturer).
That is to get away from any liability from failure. I will say 9 times out of ten most failures come from a bad install.



Quote:
Well if Woody says so, then it must be OK :D
Woody's a good guy and has been around along time.
JustaFramer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2005, 05:47 PM   #12
Member
 
Floorwizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Alaska!
Posts: 1,522
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


Quote:
That is to get away from any liability from failure. I will say 9 times out of ten most failures come from a bad install.
80% bad install
19% misinformed
1% bad product
Floorwizard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2005, 09:37 PM   #13
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 57
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


So the hardibacker actually creates a concrete floating floor for the tile? I thought that it was supposed to be screwed down to the joists to keep from moving. Good thing I haven't done tile yet...

And I had to look - jameshardie.com has instructions on their website for the backer, and says to use:

" Minimum 1-1/4" long corrosion-resistant roofing nail or
Minimum 1-1/4" long No. 8 x 0.375" self-drilling corrosion-resistant ribbed waferhead screws. "
Neil_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2005, 09:29 PM   #14
Member
 
jproffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chester, IL
Posts: 1,296
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


I don't know about floating, but kind of I guess. It sounds strange; plywood to joists, rock to ply....or....rock directly to joists...what's the difference? But there is one, every time the house settles the rock will move(if screwed direct to joists). I don't fully understand the WHY, but I know that's the way it should be done. I guess the plywood absorbs at least some of the movement from the joists.
jproffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2005, 08:17 AM   #15
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 57
Default

How much of the floor should I pull ?


Makes sense. I have a tile project coming up soon and this will save me some research. Thanks.

One more question - how do you calculate L360? My first tile job will be a bathroom - about 8'x8', but I think my wife eventually wants tile in the kitchen.

Neil_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Snow Blower Pull doesn't have tension Camper147 Tools 14 02-02-2012 04:59 AM
Do you have to pull new wires for remodel? wease Electrical 1 12-07-2006 01:49 PM
pull chain switch bobo Electrical 2 12-28-2005 05:16 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.