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Old 07-26-2008, 04:45 PM   #16
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Help removing carpet padding!


I didn't start this crap! (Not that I'm not capable of it)
Why should I take it laying down?

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Old 07-26-2008, 05:12 PM   #17
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Help removing carpet padding!


You're an installer Bud. You're supposed to take it kneeling down.
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Old 07-27-2008, 12:44 AM   #18
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HomeDepot23:

Don't quit your day job.

As a professional stand up comic, you'd starve to death.

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Old 07-27-2008, 12:50 AM   #19
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Hey there! The Henry's stuff is working fairly well. BUT, I was wondering, mainly to the person who suggested the Henry stuff, have you ever used it? Just curious, b/c it says to apply it with a squegge, and then clean up with clear water, etc. etc. But, when I diluted it, it didn't really work any better than what I have been using, so I used it full strength, and then it worked pretty well. BUT, I didn't use a squegge, I just scraped and then vacuumed it up with a shop-vac. The room I am working in, does not have a drain or anything, so I am not sure the squegge thing would work, you see what I am trying to say? Any help here? I plan to put some Killz2 Primer down after I get all this gunk scraped up, then I am going to use wallpaper paste to paste some brown craft paper down (in different sizes and just ripped) to cover the floor, overlapping each piece a little of course, then when it is all covered and dry, I am going to use some polyurethane to seal it. I know it sounds very "novice-like" and maybe even stupid, but my sister showed me some of the floors she did like that and they look like rock, and hold up very very well. They are clean, easy to maintain and it looks like rock when it is all said and done. I did it in my daughter's room back in May, and it turned out awesome. Of course in her room, the carpet was just taped down around the perimeter, so tearing that up was no big deal, and no carpet pad underneath. Okay, so, any suggestions on the Henry's stuff?? If I vacuum it up with the shop-vac, will the primer still stick is what I am wondering. Of course I will give it plenty of time to dry, I am just wondering if there is some type of ingredient that you know of, that may possibly not let the primer stick. Thanks!
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Old 07-27-2008, 01:47 AM   #20
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BradleyBunch:

Look on your bottle of Henry Adhesive Remover and see if there's a 1-800 customer service phone number. Phone them and ask where you can download an MSDS sheet from. A "Material Safety Data Sheet" will tell us what's in that stuff, and that will tell us how to remove it from the floor so that a primer will stick.

Also, look on the bottle for any reference that says "Contains methylene chloride" or "Contains Dichloromethane" or "Contains DCM" or anything that would suggest that the active ingredient is a methane molecule with two of the hydrogens replaced by chlorine atoms. Chemical names like "methane bichloride" or "methylene dichloride" would tell you that.

If so, then the stuff you're using is essentially paint stripper.

See if you can get a link to a web page that give the MSDS sheet for "Henry EZ Release Adhesive Remover" and once we know what's in it, we can advise you on how to ensure that you won't have any residue that interferes with the adhesion of your primer.

PS: If you're wanting to paint a concrete floor, you DO NOT need a primer. Concrete is rough enough that ANY paint (latex or oil based) will stick well to it without using a primer. In fact, it's common to paint alkyd or polyurethane floor paints directly onto bare concrete with no primer in sight.

I'd take your brown paper bags, tear them up into pieces, soak them in white wood glue (if it were me, I would soak them in a much harder acrylic like Flecto Diamond water based Polyurethane

http://www.polyclay.com/flecto.htm

and stick them to your floor.

And then, use a paint roller on a pole to apply successive coats of the same water based polyurethane over top of your brown paper floor.

Typically, the way to do this requires you to soak the pieces of brown paper in white wood glue. White wood glue is polyvinyl acetate. It's a good glue, but it's much softer than water based polyurethane. And, the water based polyurethane would stick as well to your concrete floor as it would stick to stained wood, which it is meant to stick to.

Maybe try a test with both; whatever you were planning to use, and the product linked to above. I suspect you'll like the results better using the Diamond water based polyurethane.
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Old 07-27-2008, 11:37 AM   #21
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We usually mop it down. The mix really depends on how bad the adhesive is to get up. As you've already discovered you may have to mix a stronger ratio for some jobs. To my knowledge it is nothing like paint stripper. This stuff comes in a plastic bottle. Paint stripper would eat right through that. I don't have a bottle of it right now to look at and Henry's website has never had this stuff listed for some stupid reason. No product page for it and no MSDS. I have had people paint over surfaces where this stuff was used with no adhesion issues due to the stripper. They did have some failures in spots where the adhesive wasn't fully removed.

On a related note, don't use Kilz2. Anything Kilz makes other than the original oil primer is pretty much junk. Look into Zinsser 1-2-3. It's a much better primer. Neither is recommended for what you are doing with it but we've used 1-2-3 on a concrete floors before and never had any issues with it.
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Old 07-27-2008, 11:39 AM   #22
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Wow, thank you for all the advice!! I did check on the bottle for any numbers and didn't see any, but will look again. I will also look for those ingredients. What is left on my concrete floor is left over old glue from the carpet pad and then some bits and pieces of the carpet pad completely stuck "into" the glue. The reason I am doing the paper with wall paper paste, is b/c (I think anyway..) then if you ever need to fix or rip up or replace it, you can do so easily. You just peel back a corner (after you've made a crack in the polyurethane) and it all should peel up nicely. I have never heard of using wood glue or soaking it..I may have to just try that!! My husband just wants to make sure that if we ever DO need to rip it up, it can be done so. Personally, I don't see that we would ever need to, but trying to please everyone you know. Anyway, so, if you soak the paper in the wood glue, how long? AND, after you stick it to your floor, the water-based polyurethane will stick to that? Obviously, after it is dried correct? Also, I have been told by some people that the water-based polyurethane will not hold up? Any truth in that? This is my boys' room, so I don't think that there will be THAT much traffic. Also, you don't think I need a primer? Just try and get off as much of the left over carpet pad and glue as I can, let it dry and then start with the paper? I guess I was just concerned that the paper wouldn't stick to the floor, if there is tiny bits and pieces of the carpet pad and glue still on the floor. You have been so very helpful, and I really appreciate it!! I will have to post a before and after picture! Oh, one more thing, do you know of any other type of "paste" that I could use, that is a little stronger than the wallpaper paste, but would still come up easily if we needed to rip it up? Thanks again!
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Old 07-27-2008, 04:24 PM   #23
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BradleyBunch:

No, I agree with the idea of using wallpaper paste rather than wood glue or the diamond water based polyurethane to put the brown paper down. Wallpaper paste is much more readily soluble in water, so removing that flooring would be much easier.

However, I have heard that the Flecto Diamond water based polyurethane is nearly as tough as oil based polyurethane, so you might want to use that as a top coat instead of the oil based polyurethane to avoid any yellowing of the floor with age.

The fact that the adhesive remover is not on Henry's web site suggests to me that they don't make the stuff. They just buy it from another company who fills Henry's bottles with their own stuff. If the active ingredient is methylene chloride, then you don't have to worry about residue issues. Methylene chloride evaporates completely without leaving a residue. Methylene chloride is a liquid with the viscosity of water, but it's normally gelled so that it sticks to surfaces better. Perhaps the gelling agent would cause some adhesion issues, but you should be able to wash the gelling agent off the floor after the methylene chloride evaporated with just plain water. (or perhaps mineral spirits).
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Old 07-27-2008, 06:40 PM   #24
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Nestor Kelebay~

Thank you so much, AGAIN!! I am so sick and tired of scraping, I don't know if this project will ever get done!! Anyway, I appreciate the helpful advice and timely responses. Little by little it will get done I guess. I think I may try mineral spirits tonight to see if things come up a little better and quicker. Thanks again!!
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Old 07-27-2008, 10:45 PM   #25
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Thanks for the thanks.

If you're going to try only one solvent to remove your old underpad adhesive, then the first one I'd try is lacquer thinner. It tends to cut more old adhesives than mineral spirits. Mineral spirits tends to work better on pressure sensitive adhesives commonly used on tapes (and prolly Peel & Stick tiles, too).

But, if the Henry's Adhesive Remover is working for you, then continue using it. If you have trouble with it drying out, then remember that you can cover it with wax paper to prevent that from happening.

No, you really don't need any sort of primer on your floor for wallpaper paste to stick to. Bare concrete is plenty rough enough for any adhesive or paste to stick well to. Painting the concrete with a primer is only going to put on a coating that will be more difficult to remove than the wall paper paste. I would suggest, however, that you use a COMMERCIAL wall paper paste. Commercial wall paper is considerably thicker and stronger than residential wall paper, so I expect the paste would be stronger as well.

If you're concerned about adhesion problems, here's how to tell if there's any residue on a surface of your concrete that will interfere with adhesion: Take some ordinary whitish yellow masking tape and press it down tightly to your concrete floor. If it takes less force than you'd expect to pull it off, then there's something on your floor that's preventing good adhesion. If it pulls off with as much force as you'd expect, then apply some of your brown paper to your floor in a small area and allow to dry. Now, cut the surface of the brown paper in a checkerboard pattern with a razor so that you have lots of little squares of brown paper. Press some 2 inch wide ordinary whitish yellow masking tape over your crosshatch pattern and stick it down well. Now pull the tape off quickly. If more than 75 percent of the squares of brown paper stay stuck down on the floor, then you have good adhesion of the wallpaper paste to the concrete. The more squares of brown paper that came up with the tape, the more you have an adhesion problem you have with the concrete.

If you find you have an adhesion problem, use either water or mineral spirits (Or lacquer thinner or acetone if necessary) to try to remove whatever is causing that problem, and try with the cross hatch pattern again. Once you get 75 percent of the little squares remaining stuck down instead of pulling up with the tape, then you know you have good adhesion.

Anyhow, good bye and good luck. Post again if you have further questions or problems.

PS: The only reason I suggested using wood glue or the water based polyurethane to soak your paper in is that they both dry clear. My understanding is that the liquid you soak the brown paper in is supposed to dry clear so that you see the brown paper that looks kinda like brown leather scraps all over the floor. I don't know that wall paper paste will either soak into brown paper or dry clear.

But, I know that wall paper paste will be very easy to clean off your concrete floor with a bit of water, and my feeling is that this is probably more important than the colour of the floor. Maybe see what your friend/relative who's done this before recommends.

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 07-27-2008 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 07-28-2008, 09:35 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
BradleyBunch:

Generally speaking, as long as you remain consious, the vapour concentration in the air you're breathing is well below the lower flammable limit, and any kind of explosion caused by turning on a light or using an electric tool is extremely unlikely.
.
Sorry, but I don't think that is good, sound advice, and it cetainly is not fact. Many solvents can reach flammability concentration levels without causing someone to lose conciousness. Pockets of flammable fumes can accumulate in one area while other areas remain clear. Some fumes are heavier than air while others are lighter. Without an air sampling meter or some other means to tell, a person has no idea where flammable fumes may be present. A homeowner and his buddy in the town where I live, were removing flooring adhesive with solvents and as day became evening, one of them flipped on a lightswitch. The spark from the switch caused an explosion that literally leveled the house. The buddy's funeral was threee days later. The homeowner lingered for about a week. Never use flammable materials inside without absolute control over the situation. Minimally, wear a respirator with an organic vapor cartridge. Never use a window fan to suck fumes out of a building. Never use power tools not designed for flammable atmosphere.
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Old 07-28-2008, 07:33 PM   #27
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Maintenance6:

My experience has been that I have never noticed any difference in the smell of solvents in a room, whether I'm on a ladder with my nose inches from a ceiling or on the floor with my nose inches from the floor. I believe that is because any activity in the room will stir up the atmosphere, making it homogeneous despite any difference in density between the solvent fumes and air.

The point I am trying to make is not that it's a good idea to breathe in high concentrations of solvent vapours.

The point I am trying to make is that the concentrations at which solvent vapours cause people to feel dizzy and drunk, and make them start to seriously think and worry about a possible explosion are so far below the minimum concentration needed to actually have an explosion, that it's not reasonable to believe that people could "inadvertantly" blow up their house. A house blow up pretty well has to be intentional because solvents will make us very sick before they blow us up.

For example, lacquer thinner is typically 70 to 80 percent toluene. Here is the website on the health effects of toluene from Canada's National Occupational Safety and Health Agency:

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemi...ealth_tol.html

It says:
"The main effect of inhaling toluene vapour is on the central nervous system (CNS). Symptoms are related to exposure concentration. At approximately 50 ppm, slight drowsiness and headache have been reported. Irritation of the nose, throat and respiratory tract has occurred between 50 and 100 ppm. Concentrations of about 100 ppm have caused fatigue and dizziness; over 200 ppm has caused symptoms similar to drunkenness (giddiness), numbness, and mild nausea; over 500 ppm has caused mental confusion and incoordination. At higher concentrations (estimated at 10,000 ppm) further depression of the central nervous system can result in unconsciousness and death. Most serious incidences of exposure have occurred when vapours have accumulated in confined spaces."

So, at 500 ppm of toluene in the air, people have already felt irritation of the nose and throat, have behaved like they're giddy or drunk, and are at the point where they're becoming mentally confused and uncoordinated. No one can tell me that a rational person wouldn't be aware that his condition is being caused by the solvent vapours he's breathing, and that he wouldn't be concerned about the possibility of a explosion as a result of those solvent vapours in the air.

Now, let's see how much toluene vapour you need in the air to actually have an explosive concentration.

This web site:
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/t3913.htm
gives the upper and lower explosion limits as:

"Flammable limits in air % by volume:
lel: 1.1; uel: 7.1"

1.1 percent is 11,000 parts per million.

500 parts per million is enough to make you confused and uncoordinated, but it takes over 20 times that much to create the risk of an explosion.

Let's take a look at acetone:

From the same source, the health effects of inhaling acetone vapours are discussed on this web page:

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemi...ealth_ace.html

Where it says:

"In one study, volunteers exposed to concentrations up to 500 ppm reported no harmful effects. In other studies, concentrations of approximately 300-500 were reported to cause slight irritation of the nose and throat. Exposure to 250 ppm for 4 hours has caused mild effects on performance in some behavioural tests (auditory tone discrimination and a mood test). As concentrations approach 1000 ppm, noticeable irritation has occurred and some people have reported headaches, light-headedness and tiredness. Inhalation of concentrations higher than 2000 ppm can cause dizziness, a feeling of drunkenness, drowsiness, nausea and vomiting. Unconsciousness may result if exposure is extremely high (greater than 10000 ppm). Intolerable nose and throat irritation would also occur at these concentrations. Even higher concentrations can cause collapse, coma and death. Tolerance to the effects of acetone can develop. Tolerance means that, with repeated exposures, higher concentrations are required to produce symptoms which had previously been observed at lower concentrations.

So, to those of us that don't work with acetone on a regular basis, and have therefore not developed a tolerance to it, concentrations higher than 2000 ppm will make you feel drunk, and may make you puke.

Now, let's see what it takes to blow up a house with acetone.

This web site:
http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSAcetone.html

gives the lower and upper explosion limits as:

"Flammable limits in air % by volume: lel: 2.5; uel: 12.8"

That is, you need a 2.5 percent concentration of acetone vapour in the air before there's a risk of an explosion. That's 25,000 parts per million.

2000 parts per million will make you puke, but you need over 10 times that before there's a risk of an explosion.

It seems to me that anyone using solvents would be well aware of their high concentration in the workplace and also well aware of the effect that breathing those solvent fumes were having on their mind and body. To say that someone could INADVERTANTLY blow up their house because they weren't aware that the concentration of solvents in the air was high is doing a dis-service to the public. It is so overstating the risk as to be untruthful.

If I'm chucking my lunch and acting drunk, there is no way I'm NOT GOING TO KNOW that it's the solvents in the air that's doing that to me. And, if I do puke and daydream I'm swimming with dolphins, I'm still only 1/8 of the way to an explosive concentration.

My point is that a responsible DIY'er would be acutely concerned about the risk of an explosion long before one becomes possible, and so no one would ever "inadvertantly" blow up their house.

By the time the concentration of solvents in an atmosphere becomes high enough to make an explosion possible, anyone in that atmosphere is WELL AWARE that there is an extremely high danger of that happening.

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 07-28-2008 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 07-28-2008, 08:20 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Maintenance 6 View Post
A homeowner and his buddy in the town where I live, were removing flooring adhesive with solvents and as day became evening, one of them flipped on a lightswitch. The spark from the switch caused an explosion that literally leveled the house. The buddy's funeral was threee days later. The homeowner lingered for about a week.
Maintenance6, we seem to have a problem.

Your personal information states that you live in Annville, Pennsylvania.

When I Google "Annville Pennsylvania explosion" I get lots of hits, but I didn't see ANY that talked about a house explosion. When I tell Google to search within the results for "house floor", then the ONLY house explosion I found was this web site:

http://www.genealogybuff.com/nj/nj-hunterdon-obits2.htm

Which gives obituaries for Hunterdon County, New Jersey.

It says:
Thomas Wilson
RARITAN TWP. - Thomas Wilson, the victim of a gasoline explosion at his Old York Road home, died Sunday, Sept. 15, 2002, at St. Barnabas Hospital Burn Center in Livingston as a result of his injuries. He was 48. Mr. Wilson suffered severe burns over much of his body in a Sept. 5 accident. He had been cleaning oil stains on the floor of his basement with gasoline when a pilot light for a water heater ignited the fumes and caused an explosion, police reported. He was flown to the burn center after the accident. He was born in Raritan Township, the son of Lewis P. and Stella Trzesczkowski Wilson, and he was a lifelong resident of the township. He was a self-employed contractor.

So, why is it that I can't find even so much as a boo about this supposed house explosion that happened in your town of Annville, Pennsylvania.

Can you provide more details. Can you tell me approximately how long ago this happened. Do you remember the name of the fellow who blew up his house? Do you remember what street or avenue the house was on?

I have to admit, however, what I'm beginning to suspect that your story is bogus. Please provide me with some more information to prove it isn't.
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Old 07-29-2008, 07:59 AM   #29
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No, Nestor, YOU have the problem. You've posted advice that is not safe. My only interest is to try to prevent someone from hurting themselves by creating an unsafe situation in their home. Using flammable, volatile materials inside a building without specific controls in place is unsafe. Working in the atmosphere without controls in place, just because one does not feel the effects is just doubly unsafe. You can quote all the scientific journals you can find. It won't change the fact that people will do creative and foolish things inside their homes, only to be sorry later. The incident I mentioned happened in Palmyra PA. in the early 1980's. Cambelltown Road to be exact. I did work on the replacement house that was erected on the same foundation, as well as replacing the windows in the home next door. The explosive force was so great that it launched the entry lock out of the back door and through the neighbor's dining room window. This the last I will post on this subject as I suspect you are one of those who just will not be convinced. The fact that you couldn't find it on the beloved internet does not make it a bogus event. This is not a forum for debating peoples integrity, nor is it a good place to post advice that would lead a DIYer into some sense of safety while doing something irresponsible like using volatiles inside a structure. The end.
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Old 07-29-2008, 10:43 AM   #30
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Nestor_Kelebay,

Why do you keep editing your posts? Is it to clean up your messes after they are called to your attention?

Isn't that "dirty pool" my friend?

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