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-   -   Gotta do something anyway! (http://www.diychatroom.com/f5/gotta-do-something-anyway-167963/)

Stevonator 01-01-2013 06:46 PM

Gotta do something anyway!
 
This is a typical folk victorian house that was added onto in the early 70's. The kitchen is 20 x 24 with 2x8 joists 16 oc. Only mine are DOUBLE SPANNED the whole 24 feet! (don't look at me...I inherited it that way...lol) At a minimum I need to cut the span in half for any type of properly done work. It's also framed about an inch too high as well, basically the top of the joists are even with the hardwood floors in the adjoining room. The joists rest on a plate on the concrete block foundation.This isn't even the whole story...it's a mess. I have the subfloor removed and would like to lower the floor level and go with tile. Any thoughts on achieving a satisfactory floor stiffness at a 6 inch joist depth and at what span? I can't lower the 2x8's unless I notch them.The floor had some water damage so the sub had to come out anyway. Wifey would like to do tile. This would give me plenty of space for the sub. TIA

joecaption 01-01-2013 07:05 PM

Got some pictures?
Notching will make it it even worst.
Even a 12' span with a 2 X 8 with that spacing would not be strong enough for tile.

Stevonator 01-01-2013 08:18 PM

Yes, you are correct. If I did that I could do conventional flooring but not tile. There's really nothing special to photograph. It's just a plain 2x8 floor on a block wall. Just extremely overspanned and too high to the original structure because they built the foundation too high. My guess is they forgot or never thought about the 1 1/2" for the plate, thus everything ended up 1 1/2 higher than planned.


The floor was "supported" underneath through the usual method of "let's just throw some crap under a dozen problem spots and repeat for 30 years until the floor resembles an ocean". These folks had no business framing anything, and I'm not in the construction business. Ten years after it was built it was already noted as having significant structural problems...and that was 30 years ago. The 2x6 ceiling joists are also 24' long....sidenailed into an 18" kneewall, which is being pushed out by the roof because collar ties are apparently overrated. I may seriously knock it down and start over from the floor up. But right now it is at least under a roof, even if it may fall on my head.

joecaption 01-01-2013 08:49 PM

May want to concider hiring a real engineer to come take a look. He or she just might have some suggestions on how to make this work.
I work mainly on older home like that so almost nothing surprizes me any more.

Plastered walls installed right over an old doorway or window, dead animals, wire juntions with no boxes, newspaper for insulation, 4 X 4's for coloums just sitting on bricks. All in a days work when working on an old house.

Stevonator 01-01-2013 10:02 PM

In the old house which I have gutted, I expect those things. Usually the things you find are not complements of the builder, but the occupiers. We found some cool stuff in the walls from the past. For me that's part of the cool. In most cases I find the construction done very well for the standards of the day. Aside from not using headers and balloon framing (which they had no concept of fire science at the time) I find their construction to be very solid. Unlike the idiots who built the garage and the kitchen. When no two stud spacings are the same and half of the studs on a wall are nailed on the wrong side of the measurement, the rafters run at an angle, the joists are all double spanned....it's obvious that skill and craftsmanship were lacking. The final proof? The old house at 110 yrs is solid as a rock (aside from a broken beam courtesy of a water leak and HVAC contractors who decided to move a foundation pier which sank) and the 40 yr old section is junk....and was from day 1.

This isn't really an engineer worthy problem in my book. Worst case is I'll divide the span properly and go with another floor type. But trying to get wifey what she wants.

joecaption 01-01-2013 10:08 PM

What size are the outside beams the walls sitting on? What now would be called the rim joist.

Stevonator 01-01-2013 10:14 PM

2x8 same as the floor joists. The floor in question the joists run parallel to the old structure....therefore the old structure really is not part of the equation....the joists run from block wall to block wall. I could change the direction of the joists and run a ledger to lower the floor on the old house end....but I would still have the same issue on the other end.

joecaption 01-01-2013 10:33 PM

Keep in mind I'm not there and you have not posted any pictures but one way I have done this is I pored footers down the middle of the basement, and installed a new main beam held up in place with steel coloums. But lifted the whole thing to level the floor before installing the coloums.
On the side of the old outside beam I attach 2 X 12's with 1/2 lag bolts.
Then I installed LVL's for floor joist that get bolted to the old ones or you can
Just install them between the old ones using hangers.
http://www.strongtie.com/products/co...u-u-hu-huc.asp

Stevonator 01-01-2013 11:03 PM

The old construction is not the issue. The modern foundation is. Even turning the joists doesn't solve the other end and would still be over spanned. In short, either I can notch the joists (don't like), notch the sill (don't like) or use a 2x6 and short span it (sounds sketchy). I could possibly attach a ledger to the block....but the old house doesn't matter. I wonder about maybe notching the 2X8 in conjunction with a hanger? I could also remove the joists and turn the rim joist into a beam and then that doesn't sound too appealing either.


https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...bZeFyrIBBigpZw

joecaption 01-01-2013 11:13 PM

2 X 8 running 12' would still be over spaned.

Also take the time to go back and add your location to your profile, yes it makes a differance.
Just go to the top left of the page where it says welcome and you name and tap it and make the change.

Stevonator 01-01-2013 11:30 PM

Yes, as it stands now I can divide it however I like. That I can do without issue. I can do 3- 8ft sections....just a little more wood. But it'd still be too high for tile. It's a do both or do neither issue. If I can't get the joists down, I'll divide it once into 2-12 ft spans, re-sub it and call it a day. If I can get the joists down where they need to be, then I will have to evaluate the span after I know the joist construction.


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