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Floor and wall tile question

8K views 21 replies 8 participants last post by  metamel 
#1 ·
This is my first tile project and I have a question about where to start. I am putting tile on the wall around the tub, on the tub surround and on the floor of the bathroom. Is there any order in which I should start? I have put Hardee backer on the wall, window sill and surround where I will be tiling but will wait to put it on the floor until I am ready to tile the floor. What gets tiled first?
 
#5 ·
Regarding the tub surround, I tiled my bathroom last year. I started with a complete tile in the corner of the tub surround that you see when you first enter the bathroom, which is also the opposite side we keep the shower curtain on. That way, when you walk in, you see the corner with complete tiles (or full 1/2 tiles as this was a running bond pattern) and I made up the difference (cut tiles to fit) in the corner that is seen less often.

As far as the wall/floor issue, I would likely do the floor last so as to keep it in the best shape during the rest of the remodel, but Florcraft is more of an expert than I, so I defer to his judgement.
 
#6 ·
I am a neat, clean worker so if the floor has to go in first then it’s no problem. The whole bathroom is only 8x11 and most of the space is taken up with a whirlpool tub and an 8’ wall to wall vanity so the floor space is limited and will be the smaller/easier job. Everything is quite level and square so I should not have too many problems:laughing: All suggestions are welcome
 
#8 ·
There are a number of different ways to accomplish this.you can work from the top down but i would suggest that you either put a straight edge around the the last row and fasten to the wall and work up from there work up from there or tile the floor and then stack the tile off of that.I would not be too concerened with damaging the tile on the floor,if there is that concern then maybe a new tile be considered for this project.
In a wet area you would want the wall tile stacked on top of the floor tile to get the extra added lip there to help keep the water from getting down where it shouldnt be and would be easier to caulk.:)
 
#11 · (Edited)
Florcraft, I wrote this message under the wrong thread, so I'll repeat it here. I had ceramic tile put down in my kitchen and the regular grout is cracking every place we walk. The cement board is 1/4 inch thick, but maybe there weren't enough screws put in and/or no thinset between cement board and plywood floor, which is 3/4 inch thick. I was wondering if I should pry up the tile and put in more screws in the cement board (I read where screws shouldn't go into joists, is this true? or do screws weaken the joists too much?). Would more screws firm up the floor, which is over a basement with free spans of 14 feet with 2 x10 inch joists, which are 16 inches over center. It met the building code.

Is there anything else that I could do, like use a rubberized grout that bends without cracking, or a fiber glass mesh that stiffens when cemented between the tile and cement board? What should I use for the adhesive between the tile and cement board? Mastic stuff, or thinset, was used before, but it seems too weak as there are a lot of cracks, say 50% of the tile where we walk. Maybe a stronger thinset with acylic or something would be better.

Also, should I try this Ditra liner between the cement board and the tile?, the liner decouples the tile from the floor and supposedly keeps the grout from cracking. Lot of questions, but you seem to know your stuff. Thanks, Metamel
 
#12 ·
Also, should I try this Ditra liner between the cement board and the tile?, the liner decouples the tile from the floor and supposedly keeps the grout from cracking.
You may have just answered your question.
there is no problem with doubling your efforts for stability.
Perhaps even 1/2 concrete board instead of 1/4 would have been good too.

Is there anything else that I could do, like use a rubberized grout that bends without cracking,
possibly, but it seems there is a bigger problem with this....
but it seems too weak as there are a lot of cracks, say 50% of the tile where we walk
are you saying the tile is cracking as well?
 
#13 ·
Your floor just meets specs if in good shape.

Now, there are many reasons for this to have happened, the only fix at this point is to rip it all out down to the plywood and start over, for one, 1/2" CBU is supposed to be used over single layer plywood, why?, I have no idea, either thickness adds no strength to a floor, plywood does, I always use 2 layers of wood before a CBU or Membrane, I sleep better that way.:thumbup:

If this was a job I was doing, I would remove the tile and CBU, add 1/2" plywood, then a CBU or membrane following manufacturers directions for installation.:)
 
#14 ·
Florcraft,
No, the grout is cracking, not the tile, which seems to be loose in many places. That's why I thought that a stronger adhesive would do the trick. Can you say more about this Ditra liner? Like how much does it raise the tile over and above what the tile is now? ease of use, etc?
Thanks, Metamel
 
#15 ·
I would first want to know how wet u mixed the grout the first time and how much water was used when cleaning the grout.Also the 1/4 sounds a bit thin for the floor first of all,and how many screws and/or what was the pattern (4 inches 6 inches)What size trowel was used and the size of the tile.What about the thin set how thick was it and what type/brand was used?DO tell.
That will give us something to go by and how to answer your question a lil better:)
 
#16 ·
The adhesive was MasterBlend which was mixed as prescribed with water, but no acylic and no custom-flex stuff was used as mentioned on the bag for stronger bonds. The grout was put in the cracks and let dry for a day, so I'm not sure about any cleaning that you mention. I noticed that some of the tile (13 x13 in) are somewhat loose with small wiggles on a corner, but the surrounding area is stable. Somebody else did the screwing of the CBU to plywood, and I think that not enough screws were used. Maybe I should put another 1/4-inch CBU on top of the existing 1/4-in CBU and screw it down with 3-in spacings, and then try to hit the joists or not hit the joists, depending on whether or not the joists should be hit.
 
#17 ·
How much does the membrane add to the tile elevation over and above what it is now without the membrane? Maybe I could just put the membrane over the CBU and redo the tile and hope that it will work. What about adding another layer of wood over the CBU? Removing the CBU would be a lot of work, which I would to avoid if possible. Does 1/4-inch plywood add much to the strength or do I have to go 1/2 inch? Thanks, Metamel
 
#20 · (Edited)
Well, there are sections of the floor, mostly where nobody walks, that have un-cracked grout. So it's not a simple thing as installed correctly or un-correctly, a binary state. I look at it as the areas under changing stress, such as walking, need some firming up. So let's say the whole problem was caused by not enough screws in the CBU to plywood floor. Then it would be a relatively simple fix to add more screws in the walking areas, and then, perhaps, also add an acrylic to the thinset for stronger bond, and, lastly, use a chaulk for the grout, so that any small movements would bend instead of crack. However, I'd like to not do the chaulk instead of grout thing, because I would have to take up all of the other good grout and redo it. If there weren't enough screws in the CBU, then why take it up and do it all over, when it's much simple to just add more screws. metamel
 
#21 ·
metamel said:
Well, there are sections of the floor, mostly where nobody walks, that have un-cracked grout. So it's not a simple thing as installed correctly or un-correctly, a binary state. I look at it as the areas under changing stress, such as walking, need some firming up. So let's say the whole problem was caused by not enough screws in the CBU to plywood floor. Then it would be a relatively simple fix to add more screws in the walking areas, and then, perhaps, also add an acrylic to the thinset for stronger bond, and, lastly, use a chaulk for the grout, so that any small movements would bend instead of crack. However, I'd like to not do the chaulk instead of grout thing, because I would have to take up all of the other good grout and redo it. If there weren't enough screws in the CBU, then why take it up and do it all over, when it's much simple to just add more screws. metamel
Boy oh boy, you CAN NOT add more screws, it won't do a thing, for one if there is no thinset under the boards, that's one issue, if there is and you screw through it, it will cause more voids, FORGET about caulk for grouting the joints, modified thinset will only help with the bond to the substrate, it will NOT help strengthen the floor and keep it from failing, small movements that bend?, are you kidding, tile and grout don't bend, there are no quick easy fixes, it HAS to come up and be installed correctly, do you want to know how, not a problem, OR you can do it your way and have to go through all of this again real soon, sorry to be so blunt, but your not listening to the real issues here.:no:
 
#22 ·
R&D Tile: Thanks for the response. Essentially, you're saying that thinset is needed between the plywood and CBU, so if it's not there, then I have to start all over. So the minimum fix that you forsee is that I take up the CBU, add a thinset and 1/2-inch CBU, and then do as a before with the tile laying. Would it do any good to strengthen the thinset for either the plywood top or CBU top? The whold idea of the chaulky grout is that it would bend, supposedly, so small movements don't fracture it like a regular hard grout. However, you're saying forget about the chaulky grout, right? Do you thing the above will work, as I don't see adding a 1/2-inch extra layer of plywood, because the floor would be too high relative to other floors, etc.
 
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