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poolecw 02-09-2009 03:05 PM

Flooded hardwood/insurance
 
From reading an earlier post, I mentioned that my master bedroom and living room flooded. The bedroom floor, which was carpet, is being replaced today.

As to the hardwood, we were going to wait and see before making any claim. Well, it is definitly cupping. So I'm meeting with the insurance guy this afternoon to take a look at it.

I'm wondering if he is only going to try to pay for the area that is cupping or will he have to pay for the entire floor? My living room floor goes through a 6' case opening into the foyer. Off of the foyer is a dining room. I don't have any transition peices...its all one floor. I just bet I'll have trouble getting them to replace all it it.

What kind of arguments could I make if they baulk on replacing the entire hardwood? shade/dye lot issues, installation issues...etc?

Thanks,
Chris

Bob Mariani 02-09-2009 03:10 PM

Not much. The only reason the entire floor would need to be replaced is if you hire someone that does not know what they are doing with matching the stains. Insurance may only cover refinishing since that may be all that is needed.

poolecw 02-09-2009 03:16 PM

I forgot to add that the hardwood is Shaw Epic Engineered harwood. It is 5" wide plank and has hand scraped veneers. So I wouldn't have it refinished....

Bob Mariani 02-09-2009 03:30 PM

Be sure it is still available to be able to match it. Otherwise you have a case to make them replace the whole floor.

Floorwizard 02-09-2009 05:15 PM

Should be able to match it.
If so then there is no reason to replace the whole thing right?

Ron6519 02-09-2009 07:13 PM

Flooring, like tile and wallpaper have dye lots. When you buy any of the above, you make sure all the boxes have the same lot numbers on them.
With the flooring, if you replaced only a part of it, the floor would be similiar, it would not be the same
But this is a non issue. The whole floor would be replaced.
Ron

Floorwizard 02-09-2009 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron6519 (Post 227921)
Flooring, like tile and wallpaper have dye lots. When you buy any of the above, you make sure all the boxes have the same lot numbers on them.
With the flooring, if you replaced only a part of it, the floor would be similiar, it would not be the same
But this is a non issue. The whole floor would be replaced.
Ron

Wood does not have a dye lot because there is no dye. As long as the same wood exists then the floor can be sanded and stained to match.
It is possible and done all the time.
Lam floor has no dye lot. You can purchase 2 years down the road and as long as it's the same pattern and nothing else has changed it will look exactly like what was purchased before.
Ceramic has a fire lot, so in a way it's like a dye lot, but since there is no dye I usually do not call it that.

Dang I am so picky.

But I wanted to make sure that even though this may turn into a total replace, it may not because the wood can be matched. Maybe.

poolecw 02-10-2009 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floorwizard (Post 227959)
Wood does not have a dye lot because there is no dye. As long as the same wood exists then the floor can be sanded and stained to match.
It is possible and done all the time.
Lam floor has no dye lot. You can purchase 2 years down the road and as long as it's the same pattern and nothing else has changed it will look exactly like what was purchased before.
Ceramic has a fire lot, so in a way it's like a dye lot, but since there is no dye I usually do not call it that.

Dang I am so picky.

But I wanted to make sure that even though this may turn into a total replace, it may not because the wood can be matched. Maybe.



Actually, I work for the company that manufactures the engineered hardood. There are dye lots and yes, there can be shade variations. With solid hardwood, this wouldn't be an issue...you sand down and re-finish. With laminate, it also wouldn't be an issue...the finish basiclly a photograph which shouldn't have variation through the production runs. But this stuff that I put down is engineered HW. It has a 3/16" solid wood veneer which has been hand scraped and stained during the manufacturing process. So, matching up would be a problem...

Mudd 02-13-2009 08:45 PM

I deal with a lot of insurance claims.

The insurance company will have to pay to replace all connected areas that were not broken by an existing t-moulding.

Insurance works on the "like-kind, like quality" principle.

If you had a continuous wood floor in multiple areas that all connect, then the insurance will have to pay to replace/restore the floor the original condition.

Different production runs of wood will have different finished looks... the curing on the polyurethane is affected by the ambient temperature and humidity. One run may be more satin, another more glossy. Separately, the milling on the planks can vary from run to run.

Don't let the insurance company suggest the sanding route because you had a floor with a certain amount of refinishability prior to the water damage. Refinishing the existing floor will give you a thinner floor with less refinishability - that's not "like-kind/like-quality." You'll also lose features like a handscraped finish or bevels that way.

The insurance company should have to pay for:

Removing and resetting contents.
Removing existing base trim.
Removing existing floor.
Subfloor preparation.
Replacing the floor.
Resetting/replacing base trim.

If you trim was painted and caulked in, they'll have to pay for repainting and recaulking not only the trim, but the door casings as well.

The insurance company will likely hold back "recoverable depreciation." After you effect repairs, that money should be released to you.

Good luck.

Floorwizard 02-13-2009 09:07 PM

Quote:

Actually, I work for the company that manufactures the engineered hardood. There are dye lots
It must be called something other than dye lot.
Finish lot perhaps?
I am trying to learn here...

Quote:

been hand scraped
You answered your own question. That's the issue here...cannot hand scrape in home to match

Quote:

and stained during the manufacturing process
Staining can be matched sir-
But a mute point as it is handscraped...good info to have in the beginning.

Quote:

But this stuff that I put down is engineered HW.
If it was plain engineered , and stained, then no problem.
Not sure how engineered makes a difference.
But again...handscraped....that's the key.

Quote:

there can be shade variations.
it's a tree. of course your right.
One tree is different from another.

poolecw 02-16-2009 08:53 AM

Thanks for the input.

As of now, the insurance company only wants to replace 25% of the room that got flooded. The room is 400 sqft, but when we include everything that is connected, it comes to 800sqft. They only want to replace about 150 sqft. I don't know what I can say or do to get them to replace all of the floor....One thing is for sure, I'll be changing companies if they don't do whats right.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudd (Post 229974)
I deal with a lot of insurance claims.

The insurance company will have to pay to replace all connected areas that were not broken by an existing t-moulding.

Insurance works on the "like-kind, like quality" principle.

If you had a continuous wood floor in multiple areas that all connect, then the insurance will have to pay to replace/restore the floor the original condition.

Different production runs of wood will have different finished looks... the curing on the polyurethane is affected by the ambient temperature and humidity. One run may be more satin, another more glossy. Separately, the milling on the planks can vary from run to run.

Don't let the insurance company suggest the sanding route because you had a floor with a certain amount of refinishability prior to the water damage. Refinishing the existing floor will give you a thinner floor with less refinishability - that's not "like-kind/like-quality." You'll also lose features like a handscraped finish or bevels that way.

The insurance company should have to pay for:

Removing and resetting contents.
Removing existing base trim.
Removing existing floor.
Subfloor preparation.
Replacing the floor.
Resetting/replacing base trim.

If you trim was painted and caulked in, they'll have to pay for repainting and recaulking not only the trim, but the door casings as well.

The insurance company will likely hold back "recoverable depreciation." After you effect repairs, that money should be released to you.

Good luck.


poolecw 02-20-2009 08:19 AM

Looks like these insurance people are not wanting to budge about replacing the entire hardwood floor. I argued over the phone this week until I was blue in the face. I guess we'll have to take it to the next level. You know, I don't try to screw people out of money. I consider myself an honest person. I just built a $300K house and the last that that I want is a mismatched section of harwood in my living room

My wife has used this insurance for 10 years on homeowners's and 15 years on auto insurance...and never has made a claim. Needless to say, after this is all said and done, they will be loosing some customers.

I'm all ears for any suggestions.

Floorwizard 02-20-2009 01:56 PM

Insurance companies will do what they will do and no more.
If you have become a squeaky wheel and they still do not budge, then I don't think there is much more that can be done.

Mudd 02-20-2009 04:03 PM

Sounds like you need an ally.

Most insurance companies will give the homeowner the run around but not professionals.

On the initial offer, the rates they quote for materials and labor will be lower than market rates, the square footages will be off, and necessary stuff will be missing.

Go to a few flooring stores and see if you can get more of the same product. Maybe it's discontinued, in which case they can't argue with you about partial replacement.

You may find a flooring salesperson well-versed in insurance, but that's unlikely.

So, you need a few contractors to come out and look things over.

The most professional ones

1) Have an office you can visit; they don't work out of their truck.

2) They will state with confidence that, no, the insurance company is going to have to pay for this, that, or the other.

3) They will ask you for a copy of the adjuster summary and adjuster's number so they can address the obvious low-balling of your claim.

4) They will know that in most states that if the adjuster and contractor don't agree on the dollar amount, the insurance company will have to send out an appraiser and that if the appraiser and contractor don't agree, it goes to a binding mediator.

5) They will know not to affect any repairs until the money issue is hammered out.

Now, if you're going to use a contractor, all is good...

But, if you're planning on acting as you own contractor, you'll be wasting the contractor's time.

The way you can handle this is to offer the contractor an amount equal to the increase in the "Contractor's Overhead and Profit" line item on the final, settled claim amount (as compared to what's on the adjuster summary when you hand the contractor a copy) in exchange for handling the negotiations.

This is typically in the 20% range (varies by company) and is in addition to your claim amount, not deducted from it.

That way, for every extra dollar the contractor gets you, the contractor gets $0.20, providing incentive to work hard on your behalf.

Write up a one-paragraph contract detailing the arrangement and have the contractor sign it...

If there's no increase, there's no cost to you. It really shouldn't be hard to find a contractor willing to take that on; any contractor worth his salt will know it's not difficult to negotiate significantly more than what you were initially offered.

Remember, you've been paying for a "like-quality, like-kind replacement." That's the underlying principle that will get you the additional funds.

On the claims I've handled for customers, I've always gotten more than what was offered initially, usually double or triple. The last one was over $3,300 versus the initial offer of under $1,700. My best was over $42,000 versus the initial offer of under $13,000.

Bob Mariani 02-20-2009 04:11 PM

Most insurance agencies will pay the difference after you submit the bill from a contractor. Possible they may ask for two other quotes also. If you do the work yourself, they will only pay up to what the adjuster claims. I had to get a PO Box to make my remodeling company be the company that did the work, so the billing would go to another address. But they did pay the extra $2,770 for the work over their claims adjuster.


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