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Old 10-24-2008, 05:33 PM   #16
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Epoxy Garage Flooring


just relating what i've seen when redoing other's diy projects w/apron store coatings,,, our epoxy mtl COST for a 24x24 garage = $576 w/o frt OR the topcoat of aliphatic urethane protective sealer,,, nor does it include consumables used prep, mask mtls, OR for discarded tools that cannot be reused/cleaned.

you have to remember that, as w/h-o's & diy-ers, not all epoxies're created equal,,, also, its not uncommon for diy-ers to accept sub-standard work,,, we wouldn't have that boon.

many times i'll hear an apron store employeed giving advice to h-o's that is ABSOLUTELY wrong but usually thru ignorance, not maliciously intended,,, this, in no way, suggests that ALL products they sell're poor quality - eg, i buy their hardibacker for sampleboards but bluetape comes from sher-wms.

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Old 10-24-2008, 11:31 PM   #17
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YesIt'sConcrete:

Who's epoxy do you use? You seem to be suggesting that epoxy peeling on garage floors is mostly a matter of stores selling, and DIY'ers using, less expensive (and by implication) lesser quality epoxy. Besides cost, what is the difference between the epoxy paints you use in your business and the epoxy paints Home Depot sells? And, are you saying that your epoxy garage floor paints would NOT peel under the same conditions that a Home Depot garage floor epoxy paint would peel? My understanding is that epoxy paints are a "mature technology", meaning that there's been no major changes in that technology for some time. Usually, that means that everyone making that product is producing much the same thing as everyone else.

PS: You don't need to know the rest. It explains what 'YesIt'sConcrete" meant when he said "aliphatic urethane". He really meant a moisture cure polyurea that uses an aliphatic di- or tri-isocyanate.

An "alcohol" is anything that has a hydroxyl group (-OH) bonded to a carbon atom. That is, C-OH
A diol or triol is anything with two or three, of them, and a polyol is anything with even more of those things in it.
An "isocyanate" is anything with an -N=C=O group in it.
A di-isocyanate or tri-isocyanate is anything with two or three of 'em
and a polyisocyanate is anything with even more.

You make a polyurethane by allowing a di- and tri-isocyanates to react with polyols. And when that happens:

R1-N=C=O combines with HO-R2 to form R1-(NH)-(C=O)-O-R2

where R1 and R2 are anything with isocyanate and hydroxyl groups in them and that ugly thing that forms between them is a urethane linkage. There's a much better drawing of a urethane linkage here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyurethane

"Moisture cure polyurethanes" are a special class of "polyurethanes" where instead of having two separate reactants, one with isocyanate groups in it and another with hydroxyl groups in it, you only have that first reactant with the isocyanate groups in it, and it reacts with the H-O-H (water) in the air! Get it? The isocyanates see a water molecule as being two connected hydroxyl groups and reacts with it to form something similar to polyurethane, called a "polyurea". All moisture cure "polyurethanes" are actually "polyureas", not polyurethanes.

In the case of a moisture cure "polyurethane", the reaction goes like this:

R1-N=C=O reacts with H-O-H to form R1-NH2 and CO2 (which gasses off)

(aside: Ammonia gas is NH3. If you replace one of the hydrogens in ammonia with something else, the compound you get is called an "amine".)

the amine that's formed (R1-NH2) then reacts with another isocyanate to form a urea group, like this:

R1-NH2 and O=C=N-R1 forms R1-(NH)-(C=O)-(NH)-R1

And that (almost as ugly) thing in the middle is a "urea" group.

Now, if each R1 has two or three isocyanate groups in it, you can see how exposing a blob of R1 to high humidity would result in a solid polyurea being formed. H2O from the air would react to form urea groups between each R1 molecule and all it's neighbors. That would cause a soft blob (or puddle) of R1 molecules to form a hard hunk, or hard film, of polyurethane plastic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyurea

Now,...

When they say "aliphatic" isocyanate, that word "aliphatic" refers to the nature of the thing at the center of R1, or the thing all the isocyanate groups are connected to. It will typically be a hydrocarbon, which means something made out of carbon and hydrogen atoms that is typically a byproduct of refining crude oil.

Hydrocarbons like propane and benzene are broken down into two general catagories, aliphatic hydrocarbons and aromatic hydrocarbons. Aliphatic hydrocarbons are ones where the carbon atoms are lined up in a row, like propane and butane. Aromatic hydrocarbons are ones where the carbon atoms form rings, like toluene, xylene, benzene and naphthalene and Buckyballs. Generally, aliphatic hydrocarbons have very little smell associated with them, wheras aromatic hydrocarbons have a fairly strong smell. Naphthalene is what moth balls are made of, and they stink.

One of the disadvantages of using aromatic hydrocarbons with isocyanate groups on them as the R1 in our example above is that moisture cure polyureas made using aromatic hydrocarbons tend to yellow with age. If you use an aliphatic hydrocarbon with isocyanate groups on it, and allow it to react with H2O, the polyurea you get won't yellow with age.

For those that are interested in this stuff, this web site covers the subject well:
http://www.pcimag.com/CDA/Articles/F...00000000431366

Also, it should be emphasized that the kind of "polyurethane" we're talking about here has very little in common with the oil based "polyurethane" we use as "varnish" or hardwood floor finish. Read on...

When you make the alkyd resins for "oil based" paints, you cook together various chemicals (including glycerine) together. If you want to make an alkyd based "polyurethane" resin for polyurethane "varnish" or polyurethane hardwood floor finish, you add some di- or tri-isocyanates to the recipe. Glycerine molecules have three -OH groups in them and so the isocyanates you add react with the those hydroxyl groups to form urethane linkages right inside the alkyd resin, making it a "urethane modified alkyd" or "polyurethane" resin. Those urethane linkages are very strong, and they act inside the alkyd resin very much like a roll cage inside of a race car, making that resin much harder if you tried to crush it, and much stronger if you tried to stretch it.

So, for "oil based" polyurethanes, all the urethane linkages are allready formed inside the resins when the can leaves the factory. No urethane linkages form when the product is applied to a substrate.

With the kind of polyurethanes YesItsConcrete is talking about, the urethane or urea linkages form once the product is used, not before. And, because there end up being very many more urethane linkages formed in the isocyanate based polyurethane film than in the "oil based" polyurethane film, these isocyanate kind of of polyurethanes form very much harder and more durable films than the "oil based" polyurethanes do. The only thing the different kinds of polyurethanes have in common are that they all contain urethane or urea linkages, but beyond that, they're completely different and their properties are all different too. So, some polyurethane coatings are very much harder and durable than other polyurethane coatings.

But, if someone just calls something "polyurethane", it's safest to presume they mean the "oil based" stuff cuz most people don't even know about the isocyanate based stuff.

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 10-25-2008 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 10-25-2008, 03:50 AM   #18
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Epoxy Garage Flooring


since i have no financial interest/benefit in any possible sale, its sold by elitecrete &, to my knowledge, manufactured by the same company,,, its only avail thru their dedicated distributor network & only applied by licensed applicator/artisans,,, eg, i couldn't sell it to you,,, if there was a suggestion failing final product is caused by less-than-comparable-quality-mtl &/or less-complete prep, i'd guess the answer'd be ' i don't know ! ',,, do know we've replaced those coatings & seen evidence of same.

i'm not qualified/educated to know much about epoxy paints's chemistry,,, since i've never seen a paint stay on conc,, hell, i don't even know how that term's defined OR even if its defined correctly w/i what discipline - chemistry, construction, coatings, etc,,, we use coatings aplied over acceptably prep'd conc,,, we coat conc w/mtls avail to pro's which, i DO suggest, aren't inventoried at apron stores,,, that shouldn't be understood as not buying anything job-related from such source,,, we would buy portland cement wouldn't it be funny if the stuff ' there ' turned out to be private-label'd for them by ykw but w/their recipe & ingredients ? ? ?

let's also be clear that quality of ingredients does have an effect on finished products,,, doubtful i mention'd store's name or color of apron as its not germaine.

' PS: You don't need to know the rest. ' - WOW, i AM impress'd - did you google that information, write it off the top of your head, or copy it from a book or label ? ? ? its even more'n i want to know,,, all this talk about urea & polyurea - i gotta go pee

thanks for taking the time & expending the effort, nestor,,, have seen evidence of your knowledge/experience in other posts & its appreciated.
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Old 10-25-2008, 04:26 PM   #19
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Epoxy Garage Flooring


I have recently applied the quikcrete epoxy kit to my garage floor, with the third step of Quikcrete Epoxy sealer from the the gallon can. I would like to go ahead apply the clear coat from the Kit. CAn someone tell me if this will work on top of the sealer I already have?
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Old 10-25-2008, 05:59 PM   #20
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Any paint company that has a decent industrial line will have an epoxy floor coating that will far outclass the quickcrete and rustoleum products. The main thing to remember about these box store products is that they are usually water-based. The true industrial products are solvent-based and far tougher. Both Rustoleum and H&C make both waterborne and solvent based products, though the water-based are the only ones you commonly see in stores.

There are other products out there as well that work just as well without all the hassle. Pratt & Lambert for example makes a high solids urethane coating that comes in clear and 4 colors. It's potent stuff to work with since it has harsh fumes. Comes only in high gloss as well. But, a co-worker put this stuff on his friend's new garage floor several month ago with great results. One coat of a beige color and one coat of clear with Sharkgrip texture added to it, which gave slip resistance and knocked the gloss down to a satin. The stuff has held up beautifully so far. It was far less work to apply as well since you don't need to worry about pot life. There is nothing to mix together with this stuff. I does still cost about as much as the epoxy kits do though. It's lasted longer already than I've seen some of the Sealcrete and Rustoleum products last though.

As far as moisture in the slab, every professional industrial coatings company I've asked about this tells me the same thing.
1) there must be a vapor barrier in the slab. This means that a layer of plastic should have been laid on the slab before the final pour. If this isn't present no manufacturer will warranty the product you put on it (and since it isn't easy to tell if it's there after the fact they won't warranty it anyway). Without the vapor barrier every tech guy I've talked to at these companies pretty much guarantees it will peel at some point.
2) they all spec a Calcium Chloride test to check for moisture anyway.

Last edited by poppameth; 10-25-2008 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 10-31-2008, 03:36 PM   #21
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The longest manufacturer warrnty on any epoxy floor is 5 years. that is applied by a professional taking three days to complete two of which are grinding and/or acid wash. That speaks volumes for how long this product is expected to last.
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Old 11-03-2008, 11:03 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Andynme View Post
The longest manufacturer warrnty on any epoxy floor is 5 years. that is applied by a professional taking three days to complete two of which are grinding and/or acid wash. That speaks volumes for how long this product is expected to last.
These people: http://www.epoxy-coat.com/ say they put a lifetime guarantee on their commercial epoxy floor product. Do you think it still really only lasts 5 years?

I am planing on using this product in the spring on my garage floor. It is a expensive and time consuming process to apply the commercial epoxy type of product that they sell on this web site, I would sure be unhappy if it was having problems in just 5 years.

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Old 11-03-2008, 11:49 AM   #23
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I was in paint manufacturing for almost 25 years. With epoxy floor coatings there are so many variables. Chemicals, acids, lime in the concrete mixture then moisture, pressure and vapors all rising and wanting to pass thought the substrate and the product applied. Then you have tires and all of their chemical make ups, setting on top.

If the manufacturer decides to make his product a solid surface (as n barriers) then moisture and chemicals cannot pass through the pours so it blisters. If you make the product porous then it is susceptible to absorption, which can lead to staining and/or degradation of the product.

My bets on garage floors. But they have their issues. Ceramic is expensive and hard to install. Race deck is hard and clunky and the holes are hard to clean, FlexiTile is not cheap but less than ceramic and not clucky and hard to clean. Ceramic will last a life time, Race deck has a ten-year and flexitile has a 25 yr. Warranty.
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Old 11-03-2008, 12:02 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Andynme View Post
I was in paint manufacturing for almost 25 years. With epoxy floor coatings there are so many variables. Chemicals, acids, lime in the concrete mixture then moisture, pressure and vapors all rising and wanting to pass thought the substrate and the product applied. Then you have tires and all of their chemical make ups, setting on top.

If the manufacturer decides to make his product a solid surface (as n barriers) then moisture and chemicals cannot pass through the pours so it blisters. If you make the product porous then it is susceptible to absorption, which can lead to staining and/or degradation of the product.

My bets on garage floors. But they have their issues. Ceramic is expensive and hard to install. Race deck is hard and clunky and the holes are hard to clean, FlexiTile is not cheap but less than ceramic and not clucky and hard to clean. Ceramic will last a life time, Race deck has a ten-year and flexitile has a 25 yr. Warranty.
When you say ceramic are you just talking about regular ceramic floor tiles, the kind that people put in their Kitchen and such? ( I am installing some on my porch right now ) ?

I have found ceramic floor tiles that are rated as the highest level of hardness that are well less than $1 /sqft. For the epoxy stuff I was looking at, it would be atleast $1 /sqft by the time I am finished with it.

I agree that the ceramic tile (well atleast the kind you install inside) are a lot of work, spreading the thinset and cutting the tiles.

I am curious if we are both talking about the same kind of tile.

Epoxy Garage Flooring-img_4441.jpg


That is my porch that I am working on, so could I install this same kind of tile in my garage? If so, I assume I would want to use the more expensive thinset that is rated for unheated space. My garage floor is very stable. No cracks, but some fairly minor surface damage (chips and such from physical abuse, salt, etc.)

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Old 11-03-2008, 01:20 PM   #25
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what's the big deal,,, tile's tile work,,, $1,00sf's cheap apron store tile & our wholesale cost on epoxy's double,,, you're thinking as a h/o, not a pro,,, anyone who'd place tile on any exterior surface should realize freezing temps'll eventually loosen it - even in atlanta,,, most garage floors aren't candidates for epoxies which's why we use polyaspartics, methyl-methacrylates, or urethanes.

pro's mtl's rarely advertised where h/o's-diy-er's could even see it listed,,, sonneborn's got decent stuff as does natl polymers but its doubtful any diy-er could find it as its not their work,,, those guys focus on architects, specifiers, engineers, govt, & dot's,,, you have to be in the arena often to find the stuff & know how to do it,,, gaining experience from reading labels, visiting websites, & watching dvd's fun but pointless,,, IF you get customer no-svce on the line, what's the chance they won't be reading from the same information,,, getting a decent field rep's impossible when your total invoice's 2 units,,, try a truckload & you'll have friends, tho.

watch a tv show or visit an apron store, tho, &
VOILA ! ! - I GOTTA HAVE IT and I CAN DO IT MYSELF ! ! !
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Old 11-03-2008, 01:33 PM   #26
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Urethanes, Epoxy, waterborne products all face the same challenges with floors especially where there are no controlled temperatures. Ceramics are used exterior in all types of settings. You can find them outside hotels, in courtyards from Texas to Maine. I live in Kansas City (can get to –18) and I have seen a lot of ceramic tile in garages. You do have to buy the right tile. Any good tile reseller could help you with choices. What you use to bond the tile to the substrate is the biggest variable. You might have paid $1.29 a sq. ft. for the tile but what are you paying for grout, sealers, mud and labor?
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Old 11-03-2008, 04:04 PM   #27
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Any porcelain or quarry tile will work out of doors in most any climate. Make your own modified thinset mortar by using an additive with unmodified thinset and you'll be just fine. Cement grout is basically cement grout and they all work outside. There is no reason to think the tile will ever loosen just from being outside.

Ceramic tile is used in harsh climate all over the world, no big deal.
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Old 11-03-2008, 05:02 PM   #28
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not to disagree w/my newest & bestest friends andy & bud - but putting tile outside in a freeze that environment's a waste of time imn-s-hfo,,, yes, it looks 'nice' - but it ain't permanent,,, just the fact tile's outside is not the issue - its WATER INFILTRATION into the jnts which freezes & lifts tiles,,, even here, 10yr life's about all you can expect before degradation & bond loss begins.

latex-modified mtls do work better but not all setters use 'em,,, don't get me started on the cheap indian slate garbage,,, that's a nitemare even tho the 'queen' thought it beautiful.

just my experience.
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:40 AM   #29
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Folks - can anyone answer my question to my original post above? Here it is again. See below. Thanks in advance.

I have recently applied the quikcrete epoxy kit to my garage floor, with the third step of Quikcrete Epoxy sealer from the the gallon can. I would like to go ahead apply the clear coat from the Kit. CAn someone tell me if this will work on top of the sealer I already have?
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:44 AM   #30
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Well, wasn't your original question how do you remove tire marks? were you successful?

Third step...? what were the first two? Are you saying you applied a selaer product on top of the two-part epoxy paint you already applied?

If so, I'd have to ask why you did that without establishing the compatibility of the two; although there is only a slim chance the 2 are chemically incompatible, there is a chance the application will give you nightmares.

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