Sorry for the long intro!
Am I being unreasonable or am I getting screwed?
Engineered hardwood flooring disaster.
After looking for a long time, my wife and I finally decided to buy our new flooring from a long established flooring place in a small community close to us.
We prefer getting products and services locally if possible, even if the price is always higher than at the big box stores.
Since we wanted a nice, solid floor, we definitely wanted it stapled or nailed.
The owner of the store came out, measured and gave us a quote. There are about 840 square feet in total.
Downstairs we have a traditional subfloor (5/8 plywood on 2x4s) on concrete floor. Of the two rooms downstairs, the larger one has old, hard vinyl tiles glued on it,
the sub floor in the second room was just recently replaced and brought up to the same height as the rest.
Upstairs the floor is 5/8 plywood - dining room and hall and also two small bedrooms. The two small bedrooms have peel + stick vinyl tiles, the dining room and hall had old laminate flooring.
It was agreed, that I will remove all the baseboard molding and the old laminate flooring upstairs. I asked if any problems under the laminate will arise and if fixing those problems would be included in the installation
and he said "yes" within reason.
I did all the work I had agreed to do.
When the owner of the flooring store delivered the 24 boxes of 3/8x3" of Mannington Maple, I showed him my preparations and he said that everything looked very good.
At that time, I still had the foam underlay, which was underneath the laminate, on the floor, because I thought that the new engineered floor can go right over top of it.
He agreed with that and also said that the peel + stick tiles in the two small rooms can stay on as well.
A couple of days before the floor installers arrived, I noticed that when I was walking on the old foam underlay, that some boards were a bit loose and the floor was squeaking,
So I started putting some screws into the floor to pull the floor boards down. Once I started doing that, now some of the original nails were coming up under the foam
and some of the old filler was breaking up and chunks were now stuck under the foam. The main reason for wanting to leave the foam on, was because it was actually stuck well
to the floor boards, because in the past this floor also had some sort of sticky tiles were the foam underlay was now, because I could see the 12x12 outlines.
Well, I thought I might as well get all the foam off, so no chunks and nails were sticking up and the installers don't have to spend their time to do it and I did not mind doing it.
It was a terrible and exhausting job! Over two days I spent about eight hours scraping as much of the foam off as possible (by hand), setting nails and adding more floor screws.
First day of new hardwood floor installation:
After some measuring and calculations the first boards were going to be nailed on downstairs, over the old hard vinyl tiles.
It did not take long to realize that the nails were bouncing off the hard vinyl below. Different things were tried, nails, staples, shorter nails - nothing worked.
"Maybe a heavier gage nail will work" they said and came back next day with stronger brad nails. Already on the first try it was obvious that this is not going to work.
"You'll have to get a different floor - maybe a laminate or an engineered hardwood click floor". They left and when I later talked to the owner, he told me that this floor can also be glued or floated.
The installer had already told me, that nothing will stick to this kind of vinyl, not even PL Premium, so glueing the new floor won't work. The owner and I agreed that we'll now "float" the new floor,
which is actually what I did not want in the first place, but agreed anyway, because my wife and I really liked this floor and had looked for a long time to find this one.
I would not have to pay extra for the under-pad, that is required now for floating the floor.
Okay, so next say the installers (floor installer with 30+years experience and a young helper) started the installation (nailing) upstairs, while we were waiting for the under-pad to arrive a few days later.
Originally I was told that it would take about four days for the installation - total cost for material and labour CAN $ 7,200.00 (840 square feet , 3/8 engineered hardwood).
After working upstairs for two days now, less than 50% upstairs is done. The installer told me that the job is not going very well, because of humps and bumps - the floor is not flat,
and so fitting the boards together is difficult. But, he assured me, my floor is not that different from most other floors.
Another problem was that the nails going through the tongue were splintering the tongue underneath and he would have to scape those splinters off, before being able to get the next board on. I could see this for myself and felt sorry for them,
that their job upstairs was not going well either.
On the morning of the fifth day I actually looked at my partially finished new floor a bit closer ( I like to leave contractors to themselves, I would not want to be watched all the time either)
and right away saw a very noticeable hump in one spot. I put a level across and I have a huge gap on both sides.
The thin new floor boards are following the contour of the floor. I don't know if any sanding was done to the floor underneath - definitely no leveling was done.
I have never done any hardwood flooring, but I think that before laying down boards, should the floor not get leveled, or at least made flat first? Is that unreasonable? When I told the owner on the phone yesterday, that I was not very happy with the wave in the floor and how obvious it was, he said:
"Well, you must have a structural problem." If I do, I think I should have been made aware of that before they started nailing boards to the floor - is that unreasonable?
I have not checked all the work that was done so far, just the last section, because the rest has been covered over with cardboard and protective foam. I don't believe that there is a structural problem, the floor is just old (1970's).
For some reason it seems that I am getting screwed every time I have a major job done - that's why I asked a lot of questions in the store when we picked out the floor. I'm always unhappy with the work I am getting done,
whether it's a new furnace, patio, eavestrough, etc.. The only difference this time and in my favor is that through circumstance we have not paid down any money yet. I always have a hard time dealing with these kinds of problems.
Do I let them take all the material out and get a different installer? They already put quite a bit of the flooring down and I surely would feel bad about that. Because the job was going poorly, the installer already told me that they won't be making any money on this job - not my problem, of course.
Anyway, I would really appreciate some insights or suggestions not just for handling the situation, but also to help remedy my floor problems.
Thank you very much.
Am I being unreasonable or am I getting screwed?
Engineered hardwood flooring disaster.
After looking for a long time, my wife and I finally decided to buy our new flooring from a long established flooring place in a small community close to us.
We prefer getting products and services locally if possible, even if the price is always higher than at the big box stores.
Since we wanted a nice, solid floor, we definitely wanted it stapled or nailed.
The owner of the store came out, measured and gave us a quote. There are about 840 square feet in total.
Downstairs we have a traditional subfloor (5/8 plywood on 2x4s) on concrete floor. Of the two rooms downstairs, the larger one has old, hard vinyl tiles glued on it,
the sub floor in the second room was just recently replaced and brought up to the same height as the rest.
Upstairs the floor is 5/8 plywood - dining room and hall and also two small bedrooms. The two small bedrooms have peel + stick vinyl tiles, the dining room and hall had old laminate flooring.
It was agreed, that I will remove all the baseboard molding and the old laminate flooring upstairs. I asked if any problems under the laminate will arise and if fixing those problems would be included in the installation
and he said "yes" within reason.
I did all the work I had agreed to do.
When the owner of the flooring store delivered the 24 boxes of 3/8x3" of Mannington Maple, I showed him my preparations and he said that everything looked very good.
At that time, I still had the foam underlay, which was underneath the laminate, on the floor, because I thought that the new engineered floor can go right over top of it.
He agreed with that and also said that the peel + stick tiles in the two small rooms can stay on as well.
A couple of days before the floor installers arrived, I noticed that when I was walking on the old foam underlay, that some boards were a bit loose and the floor was squeaking,
So I started putting some screws into the floor to pull the floor boards down. Once I started doing that, now some of the original nails were coming up under the foam
and some of the old filler was breaking up and chunks were now stuck under the foam. The main reason for wanting to leave the foam on, was because it was actually stuck well
to the floor boards, because in the past this floor also had some sort of sticky tiles were the foam underlay was now, because I could see the 12x12 outlines.
Well, I thought I might as well get all the foam off, so no chunks and nails were sticking up and the installers don't have to spend their time to do it and I did not mind doing it.
It was a terrible and exhausting job! Over two days I spent about eight hours scraping as much of the foam off as possible (by hand), setting nails and adding more floor screws.
First day of new hardwood floor installation:
After some measuring and calculations the first boards were going to be nailed on downstairs, over the old hard vinyl tiles.
It did not take long to realize that the nails were bouncing off the hard vinyl below. Different things were tried, nails, staples, shorter nails - nothing worked.
"Maybe a heavier gage nail will work" they said and came back next day with stronger brad nails. Already on the first try it was obvious that this is not going to work.
"You'll have to get a different floor - maybe a laminate or an engineered hardwood click floor". They left and when I later talked to the owner, he told me that this floor can also be glued or floated.
The installer had already told me, that nothing will stick to this kind of vinyl, not even PL Premium, so glueing the new floor won't work. The owner and I agreed that we'll now "float" the new floor,
which is actually what I did not want in the first place, but agreed anyway, because my wife and I really liked this floor and had looked for a long time to find this one.
I would not have to pay extra for the under-pad, that is required now for floating the floor.
Okay, so next say the installers (floor installer with 30+years experience and a young helper) started the installation (nailing) upstairs, while we were waiting for the under-pad to arrive a few days later.
Originally I was told that it would take about four days for the installation - total cost for material and labour CAN $ 7,200.00 (840 square feet , 3/8 engineered hardwood).
After working upstairs for two days now, less than 50% upstairs is done. The installer told me that the job is not going very well, because of humps and bumps - the floor is not flat,
and so fitting the boards together is difficult. But, he assured me, my floor is not that different from most other floors.
Another problem was that the nails going through the tongue were splintering the tongue underneath and he would have to scape those splinters off, before being able to get the next board on. I could see this for myself and felt sorry for them,
that their job upstairs was not going well either.
On the morning of the fifth day I actually looked at my partially finished new floor a bit closer ( I like to leave contractors to themselves, I would not want to be watched all the time either)
and right away saw a very noticeable hump in one spot. I put a level across and I have a huge gap on both sides.
The thin new floor boards are following the contour of the floor. I don't know if any sanding was done to the floor underneath - definitely no leveling was done.
I have never done any hardwood flooring, but I think that before laying down boards, should the floor not get leveled, or at least made flat first? Is that unreasonable? When I told the owner on the phone yesterday, that I was not very happy with the wave in the floor and how obvious it was, he said:
"Well, you must have a structural problem." If I do, I think I should have been made aware of that before they started nailing boards to the floor - is that unreasonable?
I have not checked all the work that was done so far, just the last section, because the rest has been covered over with cardboard and protective foam. I don't believe that there is a structural problem, the floor is just old (1970's).
For some reason it seems that I am getting screwed every time I have a major job done - that's why I asked a lot of questions in the store when we picked out the floor. I'm always unhappy with the work I am getting done,
whether it's a new furnace, patio, eavestrough, etc.. The only difference this time and in my favor is that through circumstance we have not paid down any money yet. I always have a hard time dealing with these kinds of problems.
Do I let them take all the material out and get a different installer? They already put quite a bit of the flooring down and I surely would feel bad about that. Because the job was going poorly, the installer already told me that they won't be making any money on this job - not my problem, of course.
Anyway, I would really appreciate some insights or suggestions not just for handling the situation, but also to help remedy my floor problems.
Thank you very much.