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Engineered hardwood over vinyl tile - am I being unreasonable or am I getting screwed

6K views 25 replies 8 participants last post by  Jb1234 
#1 ·
Sorry for the long intro!

Am I being unreasonable or am I getting screwed?
Engineered hardwood flooring disaster.

After looking for a long time, my wife and I finally decided to buy our new flooring from a long established flooring place in a small community close to us.
We prefer getting products and services locally if possible, even if the price is always higher than at the big box stores.
Since we wanted a nice, solid floor, we definitely wanted it stapled or nailed.

The owner of the store came out, measured and gave us a quote. There are about 840 square feet in total.
Downstairs we have a traditional subfloor (5/8 plywood on 2x4s) on concrete floor. Of the two rooms downstairs, the larger one has old, hard vinyl tiles glued on it,
the sub floor in the second room was just recently replaced and brought up to the same height as the rest.
Upstairs the floor is 5/8 plywood - dining room and hall and also two small bedrooms. The two small bedrooms have peel + stick vinyl tiles, the dining room and hall had old laminate flooring.
It was agreed, that I will remove all the baseboard molding and the old laminate flooring upstairs. I asked if any problems under the laminate will arise and if fixing those problems would be included in the installation
and he said "yes" within reason.
I did all the work I had agreed to do.

When the owner of the flooring store delivered the 24 boxes of 3/8x3" of Mannington Maple, I showed him my preparations and he said that everything looked very good.
At that time, I still had the foam underlay, which was underneath the laminate, on the floor, because I thought that the new engineered floor can go right over top of it.
He agreed with that and also said that the peel + stick tiles in the two small rooms can stay on as well.
A couple of days before the floor installers arrived, I noticed that when I was walking on the old foam underlay, that some boards were a bit loose and the floor was squeaking,
So I started putting some screws into the floor to pull the floor boards down. Once I started doing that, now some of the original nails were coming up under the foam
and some of the old filler was breaking up and chunks were now stuck under the foam. The main reason for wanting to leave the foam on, was because it was actually stuck well
to the floor boards, because in the past this floor also had some sort of sticky tiles were the foam underlay was now, because I could see the 12x12 outlines.

Well, I thought I might as well get all the foam off, so no chunks and nails were sticking up and the installers don't have to spend their time to do it and I did not mind doing it.
It was a terrible and exhausting job! Over two days I spent about eight hours scraping as much of the foam off as possible (by hand), setting nails and adding more floor screws.

First day of new hardwood floor installation:
After some measuring and calculations the first boards were going to be nailed on downstairs, over the old hard vinyl tiles.
It did not take long to realize that the nails were bouncing off the hard vinyl below. Different things were tried, nails, staples, shorter nails - nothing worked.
"Maybe a heavier gage nail will work" they said and came back next day with stronger brad nails. Already on the first try it was obvious that this is not going to work.

"You'll have to get a different floor - maybe a laminate or an engineered hardwood click floor". They left and when I later talked to the owner, he told me that this floor can also be glued or floated.
The installer had already told me, that nothing will stick to this kind of vinyl, not even PL Premium, so glueing the new floor won't work. The owner and I agreed that we'll now "float" the new floor,
which is actually what I did not want in the first place, but agreed anyway, because my wife and I really liked this floor and had looked for a long time to find this one.
I would not have to pay extra for the under-pad, that is required now for floating the floor.

Okay, so next say the installers (floor installer with 30+years experience and a young helper) started the installation (nailing) upstairs, while we were waiting for the under-pad to arrive a few days later.
Originally I was told that it would take about four days for the installation - total cost for material and labour CAN $ 7,200.00 (840 square feet , 3/8 engineered hardwood).
After working upstairs for two days now, less than 50% upstairs is done. The installer told me that the job is not going very well, because of humps and bumps - the floor is not flat,
and so fitting the boards together is difficult. But, he assured me, my floor is not that different from most other floors.

Another problem was that the nails going through the tongue were splintering the tongue underneath and he would have to scape those splinters off, before being able to get the next board on. I could see this for myself and felt sorry for them,
that their job upstairs was not going well either.
On the morning of the fifth day I actually looked at my partially finished new floor a bit closer ( I like to leave contractors to themselves, I would not want to be watched all the time either)
and right away saw a very noticeable hump in one spot. I put a level across and I have a huge gap on both sides.
The thin new floor boards are following the contour of the floor. I don't know if any sanding was done to the floor underneath - definitely no leveling was done.
I have never done any hardwood flooring, but I think that before laying down boards, should the floor not get leveled, or at least made flat first? Is that unreasonable? When I told the owner on the phone yesterday, that I was not very happy with the wave in the floor and how obvious it was, he said:
"Well, you must have a structural problem." If I do, I think I should have been made aware of that before they started nailing boards to the floor - is that unreasonable?
I have not checked all the work that was done so far, just the last section, because the rest has been covered over with cardboard and protective foam. I don't believe that there is a structural problem, the floor is just old (1970's).
For some reason it seems that I am getting screwed every time I have a major job done - that's why I asked a lot of questions in the store when we picked out the floor. I'm always unhappy with the work I am getting done,
whether it's a new furnace, patio, eavestrough, etc.. The only difference this time and in my favor is that through circumstance we have not paid down any money yet. I always have a hard time dealing with these kinds of problems.
Do I let them take all the material out and get a different installer? They already put quite a bit of the flooring down and I surely would feel bad about that. Because the job was going poorly, the installer already told me that they won't be making any money on this job - not my problem, of course.
Anyway, I would really appreciate some insights or suggestions not just for handling the situation, but also to help remedy my floor problems.
Thank you very much.
 
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#2 ·
I am not a flooring expert, just a DIY homeowner. I would not let these guys back in my house. How much of the 7k have you paid them? A "wavy" floor is totally unacceptable, but I would not have these guys fix it. Do some research and hire someone that knows what they are doing. Or learn to do it yourself.
 
#4 ·
I am also just a DIY homeowner, but that does not sound right.

You know what they say, if all else fails, read the instructions. If you do not have a hardcopy, you can find them here: http://www.mannington.com/~/media/F...uctions/2013 Hardwood Installation Guide.ashx

I did a quick read, and they are being very generous. They allow 1/4" in 10 feet out of flat. I would have expected the first thing the installers would do is to pull their straight-edge and check the flatness of the floor. Foundations settle over time, and wood joists distort --- its a fact of life, it does not mean your house has strange structural issues. When I did my floor I leveled it, but I understand that shimming with felt paper or shingles is very common.

We have some pros here that can offer better advise than I can, but I expect they will say that the FIRST thing they do when they start a job is check out the sub-floor.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Add more When installing any wood floor the wood will follow the floor underneath. Normally this is not very drastic. As a hardwood installer, I do not fix sub-floor problems. This is not my trade. I will always point out any problems I think will be a problem with the installation. If I do not feel that I can do a good job, then I will pull off the job. I have them contact a carpenter of their choice or I will give them a # of one that I have used in the past that I know they can fix the problem to my satisfaction.
When installing wood, there are very few products that can be used to bring a floor to flat. With engineered there are even fewer things to use because of the short staples or nails. The only thing that can be done is take up the plywood in the bad area and fix the joist that is making it high or low.
The installer should have stopped the job and informed you of the problem before continuing the installation. They should not have to pay for fixing the floor, but they should remove the bad area so it can be addressed. They also should pay for any wood needed to finish the job. Keep their money until you are happy!
I am not a big fan of box stores, but if you have a problem they will fix it no matter what the circumstances. I used to work for one of them.
 
#6 ·
Thank you all for the information so far. At least I know now that I am not out of line. It is hard to fix this kind of potentially large problem, when one is already in the middle of laying the floor.
If they had checked the floor first and informed me of the problems, I could have addressed them right away and they could just have postponed the job for a few days or a week. I would not expect them to fix the problem or to pay for it, I would have gladly done that if I ended up with a better looking floor later. I still think that at least some improvement could have been achieved, by sanding and leveling - at least then I would have felt that some of the problem was at least somewhat addressed and a wave in the floor would then be easier to accept.
 
#7 ·
A 5/8" floor is to thin to sand anything off the top. If you were using 3/4" flooring it could be done. But, not with 3/8". Your floor would be spongy. It sounded like the floor was more than 1/4" in 10' out of level. If it's not then I would not worry about it unless it bothered you a lot.
 
#8 ·
Thank you, woodman58.
I now believe that your first suspicion is correct. There must be a problem with the joists, so it would be a structural problem after all.
Like I said, too bad nobody pointed that out to me before they started laying down the new floor. When the old laminate floor was still in, there was always a spot that seemed to be low in one area when I was walking over it, but I never really paid much attention to it and always thought, we'll get it fixed when we get a new floor. I even pointed it out to the owner when he first came over to quote the job. I was told then, that they have some sort of thin set underlay to fix problems like this.
By the way, the dip I have now in the floor is way more that a 1/4 inch over 10 feet. If I put down a 4 foot level, I have 3/4 of an inch dip on the right hand side of the level.
 
#11 · (Edited)
If I put down a 4 foot level, I have 3/4 of an inch dip on the right hand side of the level.
If one end of the level is in mid-air, I don't think you are measuring it properly. With the level touching the floor on two high points, out-of-flat is gap in between. 4' level is rather short for this, but a tight string does the job too.

(I had to correct this post. I used the term "level", which is common. But to be accurate, what you need is "flat". As far as the flooring goes, it does not matter if your whole floor is on a slope, so long as it is flat.)
 
#9 · (Edited)
I originally typed a long winded answer, then deleted after I thought the post was old so I wouldn't look stupid. Lol. Yes the advice above is correct. The installer should have used a long level and made sure the floor was flat to the manufacturers specs. The installers sounded like hacks who gave you misinformation and do not know how to follow specs. When this floor fails the manufacturer's warranty won't back it because of the shoddy install.

My advice is before you have ANY work done and any product installed, you pull up the products spec sheet and see how it should be installed and what the specs are even if you aren't doing the install. As an example of the above, if you did, you would have seen that foam needed to have come up, and with a $20 6ft level you would have seen your floor was out if level and out of spec. 30 mins and 20 bucks on your end would have saved you all this frustration.
 
#10 ·
Also take pictures of everything. It's also your house, it doesn't matter what they have covered, pull it up and photograph it. I would not pay them, they are doing an improper install. It would be like paying for an oil change in a car and they put water in instead of oil. Not only would you not pay for the oil change, but they will be responsible for returning your car to its original operating condition. It's your house and your money, don't be afraid to take charge and get educated.
 
#12 ·
Do not let them use thin set or any type of leveling compound. As I stated before, the 1" to 1 1/4" nails will not have enough bite in the wood floor. With 3/8" flooring you can only fix the floor to get it right.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Flooring, like almost anything in the house, will only be as good as the base you have to work with. If you have badly crowned wall studs, you'll be fighting to drywall. Peeling paint, you can't just paint over without prep. The list can go on. If the beginning stages start bad, the project will only get worse. I do 90% of my own work and I'm incredibly anal when I read what the tolerances are for whatever I'm installing. Never just hope for the best. Also never allow a contractor to blow smoke. This contractor was cutting corners and was hoping to fool you with your lack of knowledge base.

So give us some updates, where's this project at so far?
 
#15 ·
Just saw the pics - wow, yup your floor is definitely not flat! The bad news is if you install your engineered wood floor over that subfloor, the light shining on your floor will show the high and low points on the floor and that will bug you. Worse - the more you walk on it, the more it will flex and move and creak and groan until the tongue and grooves will eventually split and then you're in trouble. Hate to say it, but time to pull up the flooring and fix the subfloor.
 
#19 ·
Yea, your joists and subfloor are not close to the recommended minimum specs for any type of flooring.

The installers should have walked on this job unless you agreed to have it fixed first. Trouble is the problem was missed and by the time they saw how bad the subfloor is they were too far along to stop. They may have thought you'd bulk at the cost of fixing it perhaps. Now they're in trouble.

You are not without fault too. Why you ask.

Because you wanted to save money and do the prep. It's possible they couldn't tell how bad your subfloor system really was when they sold you the installation. In any case, the subfloor is supposed to be presented to the installers within specs. With a floor that bad, you don't have to be a flooring installer to know it's not right.

They should have not started to install anything once they saw how bad it is though.

It's a bad situation for both you and them.

I would have handled this differently. Ok sure, you wanna save money and do the rip out, fine. Let me know when you're done and I'll come back to see if the floor is ready and make suggestions.

Some thing to consider;

Hourly Labor rates; $55.00

If you watch; $65.00

If you help; $75.00

Jaz
 
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#20 ·
The only prep work I agreed to do was taking off all the baseboard moulding and the old laminate floor in the main room upstairs - that's it. First I was even told that the old foam underlay can stay. Only because the subfloor was a bit squeaky and some areas felt a bit soft, I scraped the stuck foam off and added
a bunch of screws to make the boards tighter.

Thank you so much everyone for all the information.
Of course now I am smarter.
I had thought if I hire someone who is doing this kind of work for a living and has been doing it for many years and has been an established business in the community for years, they would know what to do - who am I to tell them how to do their job? I don't know anything about installing any kind of floor - if I did, I would have done it myself, but it would have taken me, by myself, so much longer, than someone who does it every day. We wanted to get it done fairly fast.
The way I see it now, is that before they started laying the floor, the first thing they should have done is to check the floor for level. At that point they should have told me, that they can't do a proper job, until I get the subfloor fixed. That was a week ago and by now I could have had it done, then the installation would have been so much easier and quicker for them too.
Now I feel I don't even want them to continue the job, even after I get the subfloor repaired properly. If they could not do a proper job so far, what else are they going to do or not do when they continue the rest of the house - only about 25% is done so far and downstairs they were going to float the floor, since they can't nail or staple it.
 
#21 ·
I agree. I would not let them finish the job. Keep the pics so that if they try to take you to court there won't be any problems. I really don't see that happening. After having the sub-floor fixed, have another store come out and inspect the work done and check the concrete for flat, also. For a floating floor there is less tolerance that than the upstairs. Usually 1/8" in 10'. This can be fixed with a modified Portland cement.
 
#22 ·
Well, a couple of days of stress, from dealing with this upsetting situation - it has been resolved, but there is no winner.
Today the owner picked up all unused flooring and tools, we shook hands and I later dropped off a few more tools that he could not get into his truck. I did not loose any money - just time and nerves!
He was going to send the guys over to rip up what they had laid (about 25%, 200 square foot), but I told him that I did not mind doing it.

Jb1234, you said that the only thing possible for this floor was carpet. I told him this, too.
You know, after these stressful last few days my wife is now actually considering exactly that.
I believe that it would be too much work and money to bring the floor up to Manningtons' tolerances. If I had all the time and money, I would take out all 5/8 floor boards and fix the joists, but the ceiling, under this wavy, sloping floor was recently insulted and dry-walled. Fixing the floor should have been our first job, when a few years ago we had all paneling removed and all wall studs were exposed.

If we go with carpet, simpler repair-work to the floor would be needed.
-we'll start looking at carpet next weekend. Depending how things go, I might still get someone to give me a quote to fix the floor.
Thanks again everyone! Your input helped me.
 
#24 ·
Thank you very much.
Yes, it is true, I had several other situations, where we had paid the full price to a contractor and were still way off from getting the kind of product and service we had expected.
Because of the hard vinyl tiles on the lower level, we were already put into the situation, where we would now have to have a floating floor, which we never wanted.
We always wanted a nailed / stapled floor, something that makes you feel like it is a part of the house when you walk on it, not a large slab of strips of wood glued together and laid on some foam onto the floor.
It was my mistake, that I never even considered, that there may be a huge problem with the floor.
To bring our floor to within the tolerances given by Mannington, would be just too much work, also we found out, that even downstair the old subfloor needs leveling, which was suggested to be achieved by using silica sand under the foam below the floated floor. It all seemed too much - much more than we wanted or expected. We don't mind changing to a different option -
it definitly is a lot less work for me.
The other good thing is, that we don't live at that place yet.
Our goal is to move there later this year, so a bit more delay is not a huge problem.
 
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