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Old 09-25-2010, 10:39 AM   #1
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Do I need an underlayment for tile over linoleum???


Single girl here getting two different stories from tile companies. Trying not to get taken by crooks.

I currently have linoleum over a wood sub floor in my kitchen. Lineoleum is in great shape. I am shopping for Armstrong Alterna Multi Stone tile.

One company is telling me I either need a wood or paper underlayment over the linoleum; and another company is saying I don't. That there is some kind of powder that is used for underlayment. Of course the wood underlayment would be much more costly than the paper; and the powder is less costly.

I don't want to get screwed here and pay more money than is necessary. Any opinions would be appreciated before I choose which company to go with.

Thanks in Advance.

sciencegirl

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Old 09-25-2010, 11:49 AM   #2
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Do I need an underlayment for tile over linoleum???


What does the manufacturer say?

Quote:
Job Conditions/Preparation:
  • Substrates must be sound, dry, clean, smooth, and free from excessive moisture or alkali. Remove dirt, paint, varnish, wax, oils, solvents and other foreign matter that would interfere with a good bond such as curing agents and sealers.
  • All substrates must be flat. Variations in flatness must not exceed 1/16″ (1.6 mm) in 1′ (30.5 cm) or 3/16″ (4.8 mm) in 10′ (3.05 m). Fill low areas in the substrate with S-194 Patch, Underlayment & Embossing Leveler/S-195 Underlayment Additive.
  • Because of Alternas size, stiffness, and the grouted installation method, suspended wood subfloors and underlayments must have a total thickness of 1″ (2.5 cm) and a minimum 18″ (45.7 cm) well-ventilated air space below. Joist spacing should be on 16″ (40.6 cm) centers to minimize subfloor deflection.
  • In renovation or remodel work, remove any existing adhesive residue* so that no ridges or puddles are evident and what remains is a thin, smooth film.
  • Allow all flooring materials and adhesives to condition to the room temperature a minimum of 48 hours before starting the installation.
  • The area to receive resilient flooring, and the flooring materials and adhesives should be maintained at a minimum of 65F (18C) and maximum of 85F (29C) for 48 hours prior to installation, during installation and 48 hours after completion. Maintain a minimum temperature of 55F (13C) thereafter.
  • Concrete subfloor water vapor emission levels must not exceed 5 lbs./1000 sq.ft./24 hrs as determined by calcium chloride tests. If moisture transmission levels exceed the recommended limit, the concrete must be allowed to dry prior to installing the floor.
  • Radiant heated substrates must not exceed a maximum surface temperature of 85F (29C).
  • When going over single-layer existing resilient flooring, use S-199 One-Part Embossing Leveler or S-194 Patch, Underlayment & Embossing leveler/S-195 Underlayment Additive to fill and smooth any embossing in the old floor.

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Old 09-25-2010, 12:07 PM   #3
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Do I need an underlayment for tile over linoleum???


i lay ceramic tile over linoleum all the time using versabond thin set. as long as none of the corner or edges are coming up. if so just cut them back to where it has good bond.
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Old 09-25-2010, 01:35 PM   #4
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Do I need an underlayment for tile over linoleum???


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Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
What does the manufacturer say?
Thanks Bud. While I appreciate your research and the post; this is all greek to me. I am not installing the floor myself. I'm trusting it to a professional tile company and the people they employ. Unfortunately; I don't know whether to trust the company that says I need a wood or paper underlayment (cost is another $1,200) or the other company that says they use a powder underlayment.

I've tried to do my research on the tile itself and know already that the company that wants to put the wood/paper underlayment is charging me over $2.00/per tile more than the other company; which already gives me pause to question them.

I know there are people out there that assume women don't know anything and will just pay what they say; but I'm not one of them. I did do some research on this powder underlayment and it says it is for linoleum; but does it do the right job.

http://www.masterwholesale.com/mwist...dID=1251221532

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Old 09-25-2010, 03:18 PM   #5
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Do I need an underlayment for tile over linoleum???


OK then...here's my opinion:

That's all a bunch of crap.

Last winter I installed a Duraceramic job (same thing) and the seller was insisting to the woman that she needed this stupid underlayment. The cost was an additional $2 per square foot, the job was 1000 square feet.

I called Congoleum (the manufacturer) and the techie there admitted that no underlayment was ever necessary and that the underlayment being offered was simply a "feel good" product and another profit-center for the retailer.

The powder product is actually mixed with water or additive then skimmed over your old floor. It is known as an "embossing leveller" and is intended to fill the slight and small depressions of the old product.

The truth is... the new product is tough enough and thick enough that it would never allow the old pattern (if any) to telegraph through the new product anyway.

So, in summary, what they are trying to do is get all the money they can from you. None of the products being offered by either of the companies is at all necessary. The warranty of the flooring product will remain in tact without the additional frills.

I would go somewhere else and NOT buy from either of those companies.

So is that the kind of information you are looking for?


Quote:
micah72281: "i lay ceramic tile over linoleum all the time using versabond thin set. as long as none of the corner or edges are coming up. if so just cut them back to where it has good bond."
Micah, not the brightest penny in the piggy bank are ya?...No one is talking about ceramic tile to begin with. Industry standards say you don't install ceramic over vinyl either. If you do it all the time then you are also one of those charlatans one should look out for.
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Old 09-25-2010, 04:23 PM   #6
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Do I need an underlayment for tile over linoleum???


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Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
OK then...here's my opinion:

That's all a bunch of crap.

Last winter I installed a Duraceramic job (same thing) and the seller was insisting to the woman that she needed this stupid underlayment. The cost was an additional $2 per square foot, the job was 1000 square feet.

I called Congoleum (the manufacturer) and the techie there admitted that no underlayment was ever necessary and that the underlayment being offered was simply a "feel good" product and another profit-center for the retailer.

The powder product is actually mixed with water or additive then skimmed over your old floor. It is known as an "embossing leveller" and is intended to fill the slight and small depressions of the old product.

The truth is... the new product is tough enough and thick enough that it would never allow the old pattern (if any) to telegraph through the new product anyway.

So, in summary, what they are trying to do is get all the money they can from you. None of the products being offered by either of the companies is at all necessary. The warranty of the flooring product will remain in tact without the additional frills.

I would go somewhere else and NOT buy from either of those companies.

So is that the kind of information you are looking for?



Micah, not the brightest penny in the piggy bank are ya?...No one is talking about ceramic tile to begin with. Industry standards say you don't install ceramic over vinyl either. If you do it all the time then you are also one of those charlatans one should look out for.
Thank you Bud. That is exactly what I wanted to hear. Have a great day.
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Old 09-25-2010, 06:34 PM   #7
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Do I need an underlayment for tile over linoleum???


maybe bud can help me out on my question about laying wood over wood. no one else can figure it out

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