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Old 11-20-2009, 05:20 PM   #16
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Do Floor Installers Usually NOT Trim Doors?


Im with PINWHEEL. The company is doing themselves a dis-service. If you spent $12,000 with them they should, in my opinion, be willing to trim 6 or 7 doors.

Kind of a common sense thing. They took the doors off you would think they are gonna put them back on.

Might not of been in the contract, but they are the ones in the business and not the homeowner. It really isnt much to trim a door, for them to make a fuss over. Figure they send an employee there for 4 hours hell say 8 hours. Its only a couple hundred dollars. they probably ckeared at least $2500 - $3500 on the flooring job, if they supplied the flooring, materials and labor.

just tell them you ae unhappy and surprised that the doors werent rehung. Tell them the floors are beautiful and what would it take to get the doors re-hung.

Good luck keep us posted on the outcome.

p.s when I put our floors in I didnt think about trimming the doors. It was no big deal, but it definately WAS NOT in my wifes contract! I ended up doing it as a FREEBIE

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Old 11-20-2009, 08:36 PM   #17
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Do Floor Installers Usually NOT Trim Doors?


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Originally Posted by pinwheel45 View Post
All I can say, is I'm pretty sure I wouldn't hire you as my general. The doors are already removed when I lay the floor. If it takes you longer than 10 minutes to lay a straight edge across a door, run a utility knife across said straight edge to scribe the cut line, then clamp the straight edge in place & run the saw across, should never take more than 10 minutes. That is, if you're a skilled professional. A do it yourselfer who doesn't make his living with his tools on a daily basis, yeah, it would probably take him longer.
Try keeping tabs on how long it actually takes you to perform the activity you think you do in only ten minutes. I think you will be a bit surprised. Then again maybe your the flooring guy I got to go behind to clean up all the cuts and install rails in all 15 Masonite doors that where cut out and never re glued. I know what happened now, it was going to take you more than 10 minutes a door to do it right and you didn't account for that.

Go reread my previous post as I said there are a lot of variables to be considered when pricing jobs out. I bet if you start adding up all the freebies your leaving on the table you'll find out where some of your profit margin has been going. I'm guessing your also one of those guys who doesn't bother putting returns on pre-finished mouldings either because "it takes to long".
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Old 11-21-2009, 01:28 AM   #18
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Do Floor Installers Usually NOT Trim Doors?


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Originally Posted by ARI001 View Post
Try keeping tabs on how long it actually takes you to perform the activity you think you do in only ten minutes. I think you will be a bit surprised. Then again maybe your the flooring guy I got to go behind to clean up all the cuts and install rails in all 15 Masonite doors that where cut out and never re glued. I know what happened now, it was going to take you more than 10 minutes a door to do it right and you didn't account for that.

Go reread my previous post as I said there are a lot of variables to be considered when pricing jobs out. I bet if you start adding up all the freebies your leaving on the table you'll find out where some of your profit margin has been going. I'm guessing your also one of those guys who doesn't bother putting returns on pre-finished mouldings either because "it takes to long".
I'll let you be the judge if I leave a job half finished. Here's a kitchen I built from scratch last fall for a client.






Here's a floor I layed this spring. Also built a couple custom stairways for the same client, both from scratch.








You see, to me, service is the key to staying busy. Yes, I give away some of my time on occasion, but when I leave the job, my clients are always satisfied, because if they're not, I'm not done working & that's what I tell them when I hand them the bill. The client with the 2 custom stairways paid me one of the highest compliments I could ask. He said, "you're one of the few contractors I've had work for me that I don't mind writing a check."

Times are tough all over, especially in the high end construction business. If a contractor is shorting service, he's committing suicide. As tough as things have been for most in our area this year, we've not experienced the slow down, because we've always taken good care of our clients. Now, when times are tough, our clients are taking care of us with repeat business & word of mouth referals. This is when the occasional freebie is paying off big time.

So, keep justifying nitpicking your clients for every 5 minutes you spend doing menial tasks & see where that gets ya in the long run.
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:33 PM   #19
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Do Floor Installers Usually NOT Trim Doors?


I'm the original poster -- all this feedback has been really great. Everyone has made very valid points. I especially feel the point about leaving a customer satisfied is extremely important.

My Dad has been a General Contractor for over 40 years. He would have done this for me if he wasn't retired. When I told him about what happened, he was completely appalled and felt that the job "wasn't done". That's how I felt too. Many times when I was younger and working with him, he'd do things for people just because they asked. If they're paying him $50,000 to add onto the house or build a pool, you could bet he would have trimmed a door or helped move a refrigerator if it would have made them happy.

I've been around carpenters all my life, I have seen what skill these men have with a saw, and I bet they could have cut the doors down in less than 5 minutes each. My house was filled with skilled men last week cutting hardwood floors. They installed intricate baseboards with cut-outs for outlets and window frames. You mean to tell me they couldn't rip the bottom off a door? I had 8 doors that needed to be trimmed. In the time we spent arguing with them, it could have been done easily.

As for the posters who talk about "time spent is money lost", I encourage you to re-think the power of goodwill and customer satisfaction. If you bean-count every expenditure of your skill, you will be as popular as a lawyer. So trimming the doors wasn't in the contract. So we didn't think to specify beforehand, although it was verbally understood. We as customers were not satisfied and the contractor could have very easily rectified that by simply taking an hour and doing what we asked for. The guys were there, the tools were there, it would have been easy. But no, they yelled at us and kept pointing to their contract. The poster who pointed out that they lost far more than they gained was exactly right -- we will NEVER refer this flooring contractor to anyone, as nice as the floors are. They could have done many things -- ranging from simply not being verbally abusive to me and my wife to offering a small adjustment on the bill as a goodwill gesture to cutting the doors -- but they didn't. It was pathetic.

Not only will we not recommend them, but we're going to write a factual review on Yelp.com detailing our experience -- in summary, great floors, decent price, but watch out if you have any disagreements. If you think they won't lose business because of that -- think again!

And as a epilogue, the contractor would not listen to all our pleadings no matter what. It got so unpleasant, we just gave him his final check and told him to leave, with the promise that he would not receive any referrals from us. I will be trimming the doors down myself. I suppose I could have withheld payment, but we just wanted it to end, so I suppose he won the battle, but he will certainly lose the war.
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:03 AM   #20
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Do Floor Installers Usually NOT Trim Doors?


Pinwheel & bigsee,

O.K. let us assume no floor scribing, short distance to the cutting area, and a small enough amount of trimming that it does not necessitate any re-gluing. Then lets assume an average of one job per week and 8 doors per job. This equates to 1.3 hours per job that are given away for free. Now multiply that by 52 and you are giving 67.6 hours a year away on one particular function. This doesn't account for time given away moving refrigerators or whatever have you. This is just what you are giving away on the doors. Now let's assume the hourly rate for an experienced carpenter to be $26.65 (may be more or less depending on the area) and multiply that by an average O&P of 69.6%. This equates out to a billing rate of $45.20 per hour (I am using national averages for these numbers) assuming no overtime wages are to be paid that equates out to $3055.52 that is being left on the table as freebies per year. In a five year time span that equates out to $15277.60 of expenses that are not being compensated for. In ten years time you have given away $30554.12. Now out of that number 10% is profit (again national average) so take 30554.12 and subtract 3055.41 and you have $27498.71 that is the total in uncompensated expenses you have paid out of your profit margin. If you give other "nominal" services away in the name of customer relations you could very easily drop your profit percentage to a point that eventually you make no profit at all. The problem with most tradesmen that run companies is they never take the time to take any basic business classes to learn how to run their company. This seems to be the situation in pinwheels case. The problem with most customers is they do not understand the true costs of operating a business and undervalue every bodies time but their own.
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:14 AM   #21
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Do Floor Installers Usually NOT Trim Doors?


I think this has pretty much run its course
Some do...some don't
Verify what is in your contract as to the work that will be done

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