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-   -   ceramic flooring first timer help and advices (http://www.diychatroom.com/f5/ceramic-flooring-first-timer-help-advices-53430/)

eyeglass 09-20-2009 12:50 PM

ceramic flooring first timer help and advices
 
Hi: I'm replacing my vinyl flooring in bath room with ceramic tile floor. Now that all my 3/8" partical bd are off, I'm putting in Hardie cement(1/4 ")bd in place.(These bd are hard to cut or break.(Im using a ultitiy knive ,but having a very difficuity to cut and break, should I cut it with my multi-task cutter{(ustyloud)}

My question is this: Do I run the cement bd under the gypsum wall board at the wall, or leave a gap between the gyp wall bd and the cement bd? If I do, what is the gap size(1/4", 1/8" ) and reason for it.(explain)
Cement board space between each other I heard to leave at least 1/8? apart, correct? (Explain)
Do the cement board expand?
Thin-set motar for the cement boardd: Is it necessary to go wall to wall or just to the end of the cement board? If it go wall to wall ,is it ok to go under the wall board a little?
Thx.

jpcustoms 09-26-2009 08:19 AM

ceramic tile in bath
 
i'm a little confused on your actual questions here. let me see if i have it right. you've pulled up the vinyl and subfloor and replaced with new sub and backer board. if using 1/4 hardi backer, you can buy a scoring tool for around 10 bucks, you score and snap it like sheetrock. try to have all cut edges against the wall. no need for gapping. get it as tight as possible and thinset the backer board to the subfloor, then skimcoat the seams with thinset. use backerboard screws to secure. just make sure when you skim the seams, you use the flat side of the trowel. then take a damp tile sponge and go over the seams.

Bud Cline 09-26-2009 10:15 AM

Oh-oh!:)

eyeglass 09-26-2009 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpcustoms (Post 332711)
i'm a little confused on your actual questions here. let me see if i have it right. you've pulled up the vinyl and subfloor and replaced with new sub and backer board. if using 1/4 hardi backer, you can buy a scoring tool for around 10 bucks, you score and snap it like sheetrock. try to have all cut edges against the wall. no need for gapping. get it as tight as possible and thinset the backer board to the subfloor, then skimcoat the seams with thinset. use backerboard screws to secure. just make sure when you skim the seams, you use the flat side of the trowel. then take a damp tile sponge and go over the seams.

Thx for reply. You sure I do not need a gap ?
Hardie recommended a 1/0" gap all aroind.

Thinset motar: Can I use the pre-mix out of the can instead of dry mix. Not good at doing a pancake mixs , so didn't want to be too watery or too lump and not uniformly. Would the gap purpose to provide the air way to dry the thin set?
Simplest way is the easist way for me.
This is my first time , so did not want to set too quick while I screw the screw in. Oh do I need to predrill the holes or would the screw silca power be no problem from the screw action.

JazMan 09-27-2009 12:14 AM

I don't understand why some people just make things up and pretend they know what they're talking about.:furious:

* no need for gapping. get it as tight as possible :no:

* then skimcoat the seams with thinset.:no: Where's the seaming tape?

* you score and snap it like sheetrock.:no: NO, you score, but snap UP not down.

Jaz

eyeglass 09-27-2009 12:57 AM

Jazzman: So you say "leave a gap(1/6"+( zll around? Can I slip it under my wall board but leave a gap between board?
I know most tile contractor will say Don't use Pre mix mortar even though HD say use it. I know it take a longer time to dry, *not sure how long)but if I left it set for a 20 days or so wou;dn't it dry to be hard as true thin set dry process? I like to have enought time to set it down and screw it down and nice and neat and clean.

JazMan 09-27-2009 01:12 AM

You're supposed to gap the sheets about 1/8" if I recall. The instructions vary from brand to brand but are online.

Use the powder from a bag. The only thing good about the stuff in a bucket is the bucket. I don't care how long you let it dry, if it gets wet in a few years it'll re-emulsify and turn to mush.

Actually the manufacturers' play games with the word "thin set". By definition thin set MUST be made from Portland cement, blended with other products. That stuff in buckets is only mastic with possibly a little sand added for texture, it contains no Portland. It is IMPOSSIBLE to mix Portland and store it in a bucket for later use.


Jaz

jpcustoms 09-27-2009 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazMan (Post 333068)
I don't understand why some people just make things up and pretend they know what they're talking about.:furious:

* no need for gapping. get it as tight as possible :no:

* then skimcoat the seams with thinset.:no: Where's the seaming tape?

* you score and snap it like sheetrock.:no: NO, you score, but snap UP not down.

Jaz

well well, i guess the 42 floors i've done the last few years are now mush. i don;t think so... everyone in every region will do things different...i've seen stuff on diy show that makes me cringe...well everyone has their own opinion but jaz don't shake your head unless you can set tile and not have any call backs from upset customers

JazMan 09-27-2009 10:22 PM

ARE YOU FRIGIN KIDING WITH ME?:whistling2:

I'm telling you and everyone else who cares, to please follow directions from the manufacturers and the recommendations of the TCNA. There is a right way and every other way is wrong. It doesn't mean that every installation that is done wrong will fail however. If the shortcoming is minor it may not matter.

But you need the spacing between sheets and around the perimeter of the room and all solid objects. You also need expansion joints in the field in many instances.

No one said mastic or any pre-mixed adhesive under a CBU will cause the entire floor to turn to mush. Mastics will re emulsify if/when they get wet.

As far as failures. I've been in the biz over 45 years, installations only for about 23. I have never had a total failure of a floor I've set. I have only had to replace 2 floors in all that time. One was a small bath floor that the customer forgot to remove a wax they put on their unglazed mosaic bath floor. The other one my friend was installing for me and didn't notice the 1" bow in the foyer once he removed the old slate set in 2" of mud on a 2x6 framed addition. The crawl space had no access, so when I sold it I thought it was built like the rest of the house. :no:

Jaz

jpcustoms 09-28-2009 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazMan (Post 333397)
ARE YOU FRIGIN KIDING WITH ME?:whistling2:

I'm telling you and everyone else who cares, to please follow directions from the manufacturers and the recommendations of the TCNA. There is a right way and every other way is wrong. It doesn't mean that every installation that is done wrong will fail however. If the shortcoming is minor it may not matter.

But you need the spacing between sheets and around the perimeter of the room and all solid objects. You also need expansion joints in the field in many instances.

No one said mastic or any pre-mixed adhesive under a CBU will cause the entire floor to turn to mush. Mastics will re emulsify if/when they get wet.

As far as failures. I've been in the biz over 45 years, installations only for about 23. I have never had a total failure of a floor I've set. I have only had to replace 2 floors in all that time. One was a small bath floor that the customer forgot to remove a wax they put on their unglazed mosaic bath floor. The other one my friend was installing for me and didn't notice the 1" bow in the foyer once he removed the old slate set in 2" of mud on a 2x6 framed addition. The crawl space had no access, so when I sold it I thought it was built like the rest of the house. :no:

Jaz

my apologies to jaz and eyeglass. after all the reason we're here is to share advice. we all do things a little different which is where new ideas and processes come from. we're never to old to learn from others.

MinConst 09-28-2009 08:42 AM

Just to second Jazmans take on premix. It is crap. I tried it on a job where the client had purchased it, and it took weeks if not longer to setup. After a month it was still soft. It is a known fact that it will soften if it ever gets wet.
Also all floor need room to expand. I had a repair a few months ago on a lanai tile job where no expansion was allowed for. It buckled. You shouldn't use grout on the perimeter use some sort of grout caulk to match the grout color. This allows for expansion. Tape and mud the joints just like you would wit drywall, but use thinset of course.
Do the job right and be proud of your accomplishment for years to come.

Bud Cline 09-28-2009 01:30 PM

Now for my two cents:

The boards as well as the tile require a 1/4" gap at the walls and a 1/8" gap between the boards. The joints between the boards are then taped with alkali resistant mesh tape and bedded with thinset. This application of tape is best done at the same time the tile is being installed so as not to create a hump on the surface that will cause tiles to teetor.

The use of premixed thinset is not the thing to do. Don't be so lazy! Use real thinset and mix it properly. The thinset isn't going to dry before you can get the screws in it. That's just a feeble excuse to be lazy.

It doesn't matter if one has done 42 floors or 4200 floors if he isn't following the industry standards he is asking for trouble. It is too easy to do it correctly and it is too easy to find all the proper recommendations set forth by the industry.:)

The fact that someone has access to the Internet is testimony to the fact that he also has all the rules and recommendations right at his fingertips. There is no excuse for not knowing how it should be done these days.

Spent two days last week with a friend that knows a whole lot about tile installations and he tells me the fastest growing segment of the tile installation industry (nation-wide) is "Inspectors". Why do you suppose that is? In my opinion, it is because too many people are too willing to shoot from the hip and not follow the industry recommendations, they are lazy and willing to take shortcuts.:)

eyeglass 09-29-2009 04:00 PM

Members: thxs for all the advices and suggetions and stories. Testimories experiences of DYI and proffessional like you provided a clearer images in my old brain.
Now what do I need to start this mix. I know I have to get this thinset (dry power) from HD.
(a)For a 40 sq.ft will one or two bags?
(b)Do I need to put any additives other than tap waters in it.(I be putting in 1/4" thk under and over cbu.
(c)Can I use my drill to attach a paddle to do the mix? Is there a special paddle to mix the thinset?:eek:
(d) I heard in some of thread to get it like peanut butter form?
No dripping or watery.
(e) How much a mix at a time?(Does it take 3-4 hrs before it get tought)?
I will place the thinset on subfloor at a 3x3 size bd at a time and screw., then start on another 3x3'6 bd and so on.

When I screw , do I need to prescrew the hole or just go at it when it down on the thinset? I'm using the Hardie screws 1 1/4".
(f)Will I have any problem screwing it since it going thru cement board?

(G) Do I need a memebrance under the thinset(raised floor over T/G.w/ crawl space) or it not necessary. Rather not.
Bill:yes:

Bud Cline 09-29-2009 08:19 PM

Quote:

(a)For a 40 sq.ft will one or two bags?
One 50# bag should do it but it may be marginal. Don't waste any and you might make it.

Quote:

(b)Do I need to put any additives other than tap waters in it.(I be putting in 1/4" thk under and over cbu.
Buy modified thinset and add water only, nothing else. You will not be applying it 1/4" thick. Let your trowel gauge the thickness.

Quote:

(c)Can I use my drill to attach a paddle to do the mix? Is there a special paddle to mix the thinset?
Yes but light weight drills don't last very long. Start with the water and add the dry mix as you go.

Quote:

(d) I heard in some of thread to get it like peanut butter form?
No dripping or watery.
Correct. Close enough.:)

Quote:

(e) How much a mix at a time?
Don't mix very much until you establish your pace. Everyone is different.

Quote:

Does it take 3-4 hrs before it get tought)?
The thinset will have plenty of "pot life" you won't have to worry about that. It won't last 3 or 4 hours tho.:)

Quote:

When I screw , do I need to prescrew the hole or just go at it when it down on the thinset?
That depends on how tuff your screw gun is. Shouldn't have to pre-drill anything.

Quote:

(G) Do I need a memebrance under the thinset(raised floor over T/G.w/ crawl space) or it not necessary. Rather not.
Have no idea what you are asking but you CAN NOT use Hardibacker directly over tongue and groove dimensional lumber if that's what you are asking. You must first use plywood.:)

eyeglass 09-30-2009 02:16 AM

Wait, did I miss out something here. You said my subfloor(2x6 T&G) still need a plywood before the thinset go on? I thought all I need is to replace the 3/8" partical board(vinyl flooring) that was there with the 1/4"cement board? If I do that, I really need to raise my flange with spacer another 3/8" (I alrady figure it to be 1")


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