Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Flooring

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-16-2009, 01:57 PM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2
Rewards Points: 0
Share |
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


Hi all,
I've been through a ton of these posts and still have not come up with a conclusion about what to do with my basement. I just moved into a split-level house in Philly built in the early 50's. One thing I noticed and was confirmed visually by my home inspector is that the tiles in the basement are VAT. They are the standard 9"X9" tiles with the black mastic holding them down. A few of them have popped off over the past few weeks while walking through the basement. I pulled a few of them off already, I poured a bucket of water over one area (to eliminate dust) as I did this. They came up rather easily, just using my hand, they popped off mostly in whole or at best 4/5 pieces per tile.

Of course this is a concern of mine and I want to just get rid of all the VAT tiles. I spoke to someone at the Philadelphia Asbestos Control Office and they mentioned that as long as they aren't in tiny little pieces, i can drop them off at the upcoming Hazardous Waste dropoff day. So getting rid of them isn't a problem, my problem is getting them out as safe as possible.

My situation:
- Basement is 2 rooms 1) rec room (17'X9') and 2.) laundry/utility (12'X10')
- I want to remove all the VAT tile
- I will be putting ceramic tile over the laundry room, this I believe will encapsulate any potential black mastic (with possible asbestos in it) Correct?

- The rec room however will be carpeted. I'm torn of what to do here and have considered a few options. I've noticed a few tiles (with good adhesion to the floor) are cracked. I'm concerned about the long term issue. I'd like to get it all out now.

So here are the scenarios I came up with.
1) Replace the removed section of VAT with new vinyl tiles, paint over the old VAT and new vinyl tiles to seal it in, carpet over it all. What type of paint of epoxy?
2) Remove all the tiles, use a self leveler to 'seal' all the mastic underneath, then carpet. Will the quikrete self-leveler work?
3) remove the tiles, put a cheap vinyl sheet flooring down (to act as a barrier), then carpet. Will regular vinyl floor mastic work?

Just curious of what peoples suggestions are. I'm not too concerned with cost or 'overdoing' it. I just want to be sure that I never have to revisit this issue again and that any potential asbestos is out or fully contained in the house.

Just a backgrounder on myself, I'm a pretty avid DIYer and have done alot, I'm pretty knowledgeable with most home improvement issues. I've just never ran into these type of tiles and I prefer to start with a good foundation, when I redo the basement.

Sorry this was so longwinded, but I'd appreciate any help or advice.
Thanks!

phillyDIYER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 08:29 PM   #2
Pro Flooring Installer
 
rusty baker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 3,858
Rewards Points: 4
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


Not a tile guy. A far as the carpet goes, if you are putting pad down, go right over the tiles. You don't have to take them up. They won't create any dust or problems under there.

rusty baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 03:59 PM   #3
Mold!! Let's kill it!
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,843
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


If the tiles are coming up without crumbling, then I'd take them out. Especially if you can get rid of the debris easily. You need to know that the mastic could well contain asbestos and will be trickier to deal with. No way to remove that without creating airborne dust. Painting over it with an epoxy is probably not a good idea. A latex floor enamel might be better. Epoxies don't breath and you run the risk of having it lift on a basement floor. You can probably carpet over the old mastic and forget it. Without anything scuffing directly against it, the old mastic won't generate any airborne dust.
Maintenance 6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 05:36 PM   #4
Pro Flooring Installer
 
rusty baker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 3,858
Rewards Points: 4
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


The EPA says, if at all possible, cover them up.
rusty baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 06:21 AM   #5
Mold!! Let's kill it!
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,843
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


The EPA says if asbestos is in good condition it should be left in place. These tiles are loose and they will crumble with another floor placed on top. Once they are crumbled, they become a hazard.
Maintenance 6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 08:45 AM   #6
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


Thanks to both of you for your feedback.

Rusty i understand your thoughts on covering them up, but as Main6 says, the tiles are falling apart, I assume from past water damage. I just want to get these out now, so as to not need worry about it in the future.

I ended up taking them up last night. Took as many precautions as possible, sealed off the vents, doorways and wore a respirator. I soaked the floor, with about a 1/2" of water, the tiles came right up, however, most of them were falling to pieces. (might be an issue getting rid of them now) I kept everything wet while removing and no dust was created, there was a sloppy mess from the years of dirt, etc. I cleaned everything up and wiped down the walls and mopped the floor a few times. I left the mastic that was still down there, and will be covering it with a self-leveling cement tonight. There is a noticeable dip in the floor, so this will serve two-fold, encapsulating the mastic and leveling the floor.

As for the back part of the basement, I'm going to tile directly over the mastic. Versabond says that it can been set directly over cutback adhesive.

Just an FYI, I consulted with a few other people on this issue, who assured me that I'm panicking over nothing. A neighbor of mine did his basement about ten years ago, and didn't even wear a mask and pulled it up dry. Same goes for a friends father and another guy who is a tile guy.

Thanks for your quick feedback, its appreciated!
phillyDIYER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 12:35 PM   #7
Mold!! Let's kill it!
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,843
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


You did it the best way you could. I never advocate do it yourself asbestos abatement, but floor tiles are fairly simple and are very non friable. It's foolish to remove them dry unless they lift right up. It's double foolish to do it without a respirator. Health problems caused by asbestos exposure take years to show up.
Maintenance 6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2009, 04:28 PM   #8
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 8
Rewards Points: 0
Send a message via Skype™ to Floorman6
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


I would suggest to get rid of the VAT because even though you might go over it the tiles will loosen and still be there later if you decide to change it later. The hard to get up tiles can be removed by heat gun or torch by waving it over tile so it does not burn plus it does not creat dust might want to wear a mask to rotect you from breathing fumes. Second coat floor with Armstrong floor patch S-194 which is guaranteed for cutback adhesive might have to trowel on two coats to cover let each dry totally. Can be mixed with liquid latex which also is by Armstrong. Patch is powder and mixed with liquid latex is mixed like toothpast or a little looser. By doing this, now you are set to put carpet, tile or vinyl or what ever you want even if you want to change five years later. I have been doing floors for over 40 years and this is the way I would do your job if I was the installer.
Alot of work ahead of you but worth it or if you have it done you know how it should be done if they are not doing it right.
Floorman6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 03:37 PM   #9
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5
Rewards Points: 0
Question

Asbestos tile and mastic


I'm in a similar situation, just bought a split-level home built in '66 and the basement has all asbestos tile on the floor (the inspector visually identified it). We will test it before making any decisions for sure, but let's assume he's right for now.

The previous owners used the downstairs as an office room and a game room, it's competely finished except for the laundry area, but that evil tile is everywhere.

The tile is cracked and missing pieces in a number of areas, especially along the edges of the walls. None of it is actively popping up, although it's cracked/chipped in many places, it's actually really difficult to get it to come up off the cement floor underneath. The laundry room tile was especially messed up, so taking all the proper precautions, we removed about 12 tiles in the space where the washing machine is going in so that we wouldn't have to deal with an uneven floor/unbalanced washer. So that is how we learned that our tile is still attached pretty darn well.

So our plans are to carpet all of the downstairs, and I've read a lot about sealing it, which is what we're thinking about doing.

My concern is this... long term.. how long will it be before this tile starts crumbling simply from age... or popping up if the foundation ever happens to have moisture or the mastic deteriorates? Basically, what's the likelyhood that although this tile seems pretty safe today, that in 10, 15, 20, or 30 years I find out that with every step I take on the carpet that asbestos dust is coming up? We're still pretty young and we plan on starting a family in a few years and I don't want the risk of exposing my future children to this stuff....

... please advise on the lifespan/longevity of asbestos tile and mastic?

Thanks!
viki412ag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2009, 05:13 PM   #10
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 8
Rewards Points: 0
Send a message via Skype™ to Floorman6
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


Quote:
Originally Posted by viki412ag View Post
I'm in a similar situation, just bought a split-level home built in '66 and the basement has all asbestos tile on the floor (the inspector visually identified it). We will test it before making any decisions for sure, but let's assume he's right for now.

The previous owners used the downstairs as an office room and a game room, it's competely finished except for the laundry area, but that evil tile is everywhere.

The tile is cracked and missing pieces in a number of areas, especially along the edges of the walls. None of it is actively popping up, although it's cracked/chipped in many places, it's actually really difficult to get it to come up off the cement floor underneath. The laundry room tile was especially messed up, so taking all the proper precautions, we removed about 12 tiles in the space where the washing machine is going in so that we wouldn't have to deal with an uneven floor/unbalanced washer. So that is how we learned that our tile is still attached pretty darn well.

So our plans are to carpet all of the downstairs, and I've read a lot about sealing it, which is what we're thinking about doing.

My concern is this... long term.. how long will it be before this tile starts crumbling simply from age... or popping up if the foundation ever happens to have moisture or the mastic deteriorates? Basically, what's the likelyhood that although this tile seems pretty safe today, that in 10, 15, 20, or 30 years I find out that with every step I take on the carpet that asbestos dust is coming up? We're still pretty young and we plan on starting a family in a few years and I don't want the risk of exposing my future children to this stuff....

... please advise on the lifespan/longevity of asbestos tile and mastic?

Thanks!
The tile it self will last a very long time but if there is any moisture below grade it will pop the tile loose plu cause mildew problems. Before you carpet over (which will not have any harm to you) run a moisture test to see if you have any moisture in the concrete. Easy & cheapest way is to take a piece of thin clear plastic and tape a square (12" X 12" ) to the concrete where there is no tile with duct tape and let go for a couple of days. If there is moisture this will draw it up and you will see moisture under plastic sheet. You can do this in diferent areas if you have tiles missing.
Next if you stretch in carpet over tile the tack strip will break up tile and maybe loosen them but this won't hurt. try to fill in areas where there is no tile either with floor filler (will take a long time to dry) or glue other tile in these places to level out so you don't feel through carpet.
As long as this area is always carpet there is no problem. If you put tile back down the you will have to have existing tile taken up by EPA or qualified tech.
Having this old tile covered is safe as long as it is contained.
Floorman6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 07:04 AM   #11
Member
 
ccarlisle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,889
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


Floorman addressed well the #1 issue in my mind: moisture in the concrete. To me that issue has to be addressed before the toxicity of the asbestos fibres is thought about. The ability or not of the floor to breathe has a bearing on whether to take it out, leave it, carpet it -or tile it...

In the end, and depending on your specific situation, humidity will have just as dire consequences on your basement, on your house, on your kids and on your health as VAT would. Get that part right and the solutions will make sense.

But I would see it that way - we do water damage...
__________________
“The average American woman is about 25 pounds heavier than she was in 1960...Recognizing obesity as a disease will help change the way the medical community tackles this complex issue that affects approximately 1 in 3 Americans,”
ccarlisle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2009, 09:43 AM   #12
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


thanks for your replies, I will try the plastic moisture test for sure tonight. I've already talked to my husband and he agrees we should do a proper moisture and mold test before we do anything. Our home inspector didn't find any wetness/mold and we haven't seen any since we moved in, but since the walls are finished, we don't know what might be hiding on the block behind the drywall. Plus, although it appears to be dry, there is a little bit of a typical musty basement smell.

If anyone could help address the second part of my question, I would really appreciate it. What is the lifespan of asbestos tile? How long can it exist under a carpet before it just gets too old and becomes too friable? I'm concerned that maybe for today it's safe to carpet over it, but in 10yrs or more, when i have to change the carpet, the tile will be in worse condition and much more complicated to clean up. Or if it gets so old that the dust starts coming up through the carpet. I'm trying to think 10-20 yrs ahead...

thanks!
viki412ag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2009, 06:40 AM   #13
Mold!! Let's kill it!
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,843
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


No one can honestly say how long tile might last under your conditions. If it begins to crumble under the carpet, it will certainly release some fibers small enough to become airborne and small enough to be pulled through an open carpet backer by your vacuum. If that occurs, the fibers can remain airborne for weeks or months. As they settle, they can be reintroduced into the air with every step you take. If you already have some fractures and failures, that is a good indication that it's on it's way out. Have the tile and the mastic tested. Contrary to popular belief, not all 9x9 tiles contain asbestos and not all 12x12 tiles are safe. Test the mastic as well. Then you'll be able to make an educated decision.
Maintenance 6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2011, 01:11 PM   #14
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


I scraped up all the floor tiles from a house bought at auction (no inspections) only to discover they may be VAT. Even if the tiles weren't the black tar-like adhesive likely is. There's so much adhesive and I don't want to generate more airbore particles that my first instinct is a skim coat of self leveler. It looks like you did that in your basement. How did it adhere and what did you put on top of it?
nursewatkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2011, 01:46 PM   #15
Pro Flooring Installer
 
rusty baker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 3,858
Rewards Points: 4
Default

Asbestos tile and mastic


This thread is 2 years old. You would be more likely to get an answer if you start a new thread.

__________________
The ads in my post are there without my permission. I do not endorse any of the products.
Semi-Retired Installer
Installing since 1973
rusty baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
asbestos, black mastic, resurfacer, vat, vinyl asbestos tile


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Re-tiling a bathtub surround BillyB44 Remodeling 39 01-24-2011 06:10 PM
Tile on ceiling - Thin set or mastic rjniles General DIY Discussions 2 03-05-2009 06:46 PM
basement issues - tile, mastic, moisture pfisch Flooring 6 12-01-2008 01:35 PM
Need Pro Ceramic Tile Advice Sasha2000 Building & Construction 7 10-10-2008 06:49 PM
Paint/seal over black mastic KBO123 Flooring 1 12-06-2005 02:11 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.