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Old 01-17-2012, 01:00 PM   #1
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Asbestos Removal, Porcelain Tile Installation


Hello, I've read as much as I can on this forum in regards to this subject. (asbestos, cutback) Thanks for your time and my apologies for the long post. I wanted to provide as much relevant information as possible.

House built in 1947, concrete subfloor.

I had 13 samples tested for asbestos. Five came back positive ranging from 10-15% fiber content. All five are vinyl flooring (sheet/tile). I haven't had tested a green 9"x9" tile on the floor, but took the sample and it looks to be cutback and from the size and brittleness of the tile I'm assuming its a Vinyl Asbestos Tile (VAT) or Asphalt Tile.

Attached is the floor plan I'm working with and I have the highlighted the flooring areas with the asbestos.

I've had a company estimate $7,150 for removal. This involves pre-removal inspection/validation, 450 sqft of removal, and post-removal inspection/validation by a third party. I've spent $270 on testing.

I've looked at rule 1403 and it says that the homeowner is exempt if they choose to remove the asbestos containing material (ACM) themselves without hiring anyone else. 1) Does this exemption apply only to removal or also the following renovation?

I''ll be installing a porcelain tile and a floating laminate wood floor throughout the house. The house is approximately 860 sq.ft. No central HVAC, I have 2 wall heaters.
The current floor in the kitchen is 4 layers: some type of adhesive, some kind of backer board, vinyl sheet flooring, Vinyl Stick on Tile.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
The current floor in the dining area is 4 layers: Some type of adhesive, some kind of backer board, vinyl tile, Vinyl Stick on Tile.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
The living room has 3 layers: Cutback adhesive, vinyl floor tile, Vinyl Stick on Tile. It used to have carpet.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
The den has 2 layers: adhesive, vinyl sheet flooring, Vinyl Stick on Tile.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

From the threads I've read, it is relatively safe with proper precautions to remove the vinyl flooring and vinyl tile containing asbestos myself. I've located a hazardous waste collection facility in my area that accepts hazardous waste material from residents of the county. 2) Do I need to follow the labeling requirements in 1403 when bagging the ACM that is being removed? It calls for "3 sets" of labels.

Planned precautions:
- Tyvek Coveralls
- Gloves/Safety Goggles
- $30 resperator
- Misting Spray Bottle
- Disposable Mops & Rags
- Heavy Duty Trash Bags

3) Do I need to HEPA vaccum or will the wet mopping suffice with the same water/detergent blend?

4) I plan on wet scraping the "cut back" as best as I can. Would the product Bean-e-Doo be a recommended product to use or just make do without it?

5) After removing the ACM and cut back, what are the options for installing the porcelain tile over the cutback? I've read, you could tile directly over cutback, use jiffset with latex additive, or feather finish, or self leveling compound.

Planned Flooring Layers:
-Porcelain Tile
-Modified Thinset (UltraFlex 2? Ultraflex 3? Other?)
-CutBack
-Concrete SubFloor

6) Should I use a modified thin set to install ditra and then an unmodified thinset to install the porcelain tile on top of the ditra? Is ditra recommended for this installation?

7) What should I use to remove the left over adhesive from the Vinyl stick on tiles? Would water/detergent be sufficient?

8) Would it be relatively safe to walk over the remaining cutback until the following weekend, when I'll have time to install the flooring?

Thanks for your time.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Asbestos Enclosure Flooring Plan.pdf (16.8 KB, 83 views)

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Old 01-17-2012, 06:26 PM   #2
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Asbestos Removal, Porcelain Tile Installation


Homeowners can safely remove asbestos tiles and cutback---disposal can be done in the house hold trash if double bagged---

Dust is the concern--keep the work sprayed with water--a garden pump saves you hands---

Use a razor scraper to remove as much cut back as you can--

"Mud" What Is It? - Kitchen & Bath Remodeling - DIY Chatroom - DIY Home Improvement Forum

A two part thinset --powder and liquid latex is what I have used right over the cutback--

As to Ditra---I'll leave that question for someone with real world experience---

Check with the maker of the self leveling compounds for use over cutback--
I use Jiffset mixed with Linewebers liquid latex---works well for me---if multiple layers are needed --the latex is only needed on the first coat that is over the raw cutback.

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Old 01-18-2012, 08:43 PM   #3
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Asbestos Removal, Porcelain Tile Installation


Quote:
Originally Posted by oh'mike View Post
Homeowners can safely remove asbestos tiles and cutback---disposal can be done in the house hold trash if double bagged---

Dust is the concern--keep the work sprayed with water--a garden pump saves you hands---

Use a razor scraper to remove as much cut back as you can--

"Mud" What Is It? - Kitchen & Bath Remodeling - DIY Chatroom - DIY Home Improvement Forum

A two part thinset --powder and liquid latex is what I have used right over the cutback--

As to Ditra---I'll leave that question for someone with real world experience---

Check with the maker of the self leveling compounds for use over cutback--
I use Jiffset mixed with Linewebers liquid latex---works well for me---if multiple layers are needed --the latex is only needed on the first coat that is over the raw cutback.
Thanks for response. I'll be investing in a garden sprayer and will be giving it a go this weekend.
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Old 01-20-2012, 04:55 PM   #4
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Asbestos Removal, Porcelain Tile Installation


What you've said is pretty accurate. I applaud you for doing your research. Asbestos in flooring is in a pretty heavy matrix of other materials, so it doesn't become airborne very easily. As mentioned, keep it wetted. Dispose of your wetted material in double 6 mil poly bags. Black non-see through are best. Twist and duct tape the ends closed when full. Transport of the stuff to the landfill will be sketchy. You are not licensed to haul hazardous waste. If you'd get stopped hauling labelled bags of asbestos versus unlabelled bags of trash......well............... you figure it out. Make sure your respirator is N95 rated with P100 cartridges. Your wet wipe up rags need to go in the trash with the other materials as do your coveralls. Mix a little detergent in your spray bottle to break the surface tension of the water. It will penetrate better. A HEPA vac is for dry work which you shouldn't be doing. Use some common sense. If you let it dry, it will become dusty. Once everything is scraped up and wiped up, there is nothing left to become dust. Who's rule is 1403? In most states, homeowners can remove their own asbestos. They may be exempt from work rules imposed by the EPA and OSHA, but they are not magically immune to the effects of asbestos fibers, so just because you can doesn't mean you should take un-necessary risks.
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Old 01-20-2012, 08:22 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maintenance 6 View Post
What you've said is pretty accurate. I applaud you for doing your research. Asbestos in flooring is in a pretty heavy matrix of other materials, so it doesn't become airborne very easily. As mentioned, keep it wetted. Dispose of your wetted material in double 6 mil poly bags. Black non-see through are best. Twist and duct tape the ends closed when full. Transport of the stuff to the landfill will be sketchy. You are not licensed to haul hazardous waste. If you'd get stopped hauling labelled bags of asbestos versus unlabelled bags of trash......well............... you figure it out. Make sure your respirator is N95 rated with P100 cartridges. Your wet wipe up rags need to go in the trash with the other materials as do your coveralls. Mix a little detergent in your spray bottle to break the surface tension of the water. It will penetrate better. A HEPA vac is for dry work which you shouldn't be doing. Use some common sense. If you let it dry, it will become dusty. Once everything is scraped up and wiped up, there is nothing left to become dust. Who's rule is 1403? In most states, homeowners can remove their own asbestos. They may be exempt from work rules imposed by the EPA and OSHA, but they are not magically immune to the effects of asbestos fibers, so just because you can doesn't mean you should take un-necessary risks.
Thanks for the response.
I picked up a P100 respirator at the big orange box store for $25, P100 refills are $15 for two.
Also picked up a 2 gal Garden Sprayer for $15. I picked up a wonder bar, scrape and pry bar, a long handled razor scraper, a bucket and a mop. Also some cheap razor scrapers from the dollar store.

As for a detergent, would a few parts of dish washing soap, laundry detergent, or a cleaner/degreaser product like simple green be recommended?

Thanks for clarifying the HEPA vac question. I had thought there might be some special wet vac hepa type deal that the pros use.

As to hauling/labeling the asbestos containing bags, I had read that locally you are allowed to haul up to 125 lbs. of this potentially hazardous material.
http://www.lacitysan.org/solid_resou...v3_English.pdf

Rule 1403 is something the aqmd (aqmd.gov) has to regulate asbestos in demolition/renovation. The exemptions are at the very end of the 27 page document. Save the next person some reading.

Would it be a safe assumption that it should be fine to walk over the scraped cutback/concrete surface, without wetting it for a week or two,(when I'll have time to start with the porcelain)?

I'll be going with unlabeld black plastic bags twisted and sealed with duct tape.

Thanks
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Old 01-20-2012, 08:30 PM   #6
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No hazard leaving the cutback uncovered until you get to doing the tile---I would definitely put down some runners--that stuff gets on your shoes if you don't
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Old 01-20-2012, 08:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maintenance 6
What you've said is pretty accurate. I applaud you for doing your research. Asbestos in flooring is in a pretty heavy matrix of other materials, so it doesn't become airborne very easily. As mentioned, keep it wetted. Dispose of your wetted material in double 6 mil poly bags. Black non-see through are best. Twist and duct tape the ends closed when full. Transport of the stuff to the landfill will be sketchy. You are not licensed to haul hazardous waste. If you'd get stopped hauling labelled bags of asbestos versus unlabelled bags of trash......well............... you figure it out. Make sure your respirator is N95 rated with P100 cartridges. Your wet wipe up rags need to go in the trash with the other materials as do your coveralls. Mix a little detergent in your spray bottle to break the surface tension of the water. It will penetrate better. A HEPA vac is for dry work which you shouldn't be doing. Use some common sense. If you let it dry, it will become dusty. Once everything is scraped up and wiped up, there is nothing left to become dust. Who's rule is 1403? In most states, homeowners can remove their own asbestos. They may be exempt from work rules imposed by the EPA and OSHA, but they are not magically immune to the effects of asbestos fibers, so just because you can doesn't mean you should take un-necessary risks.

Thanks for the response.
I picked up a P100 respirator at the big orange box store for $25, P100 refills are $15 for two. Excellent.
Also picked up a 2 gal Garden Sprayer for $15. That's what we use. I picked up a wonder bar, scrape and pry bar, a long handled razor scraper, a bucket and a mop. Throw the mop head away when you're done. Also some cheap razor scrapers from the dollar store.

As for a detergent, would a few parts of dish washing soap, laundry detergent, or a cleaner/degreaser product like simple green be recommended? Dish soap is good

Thanks for clarifying the HEPA vac question. I had thought there might be some special wet vac hepa type deal that the pros use. There is, but you don't want to spend that much $$$

As to hauling/labeling the asbestos containing bags, I had read that locally you are allowed to haul up to 125 lbs. of this potentially hazardous material.
http://www.lacitysan.org/solid_resou...v3_English.pdf Cool, must be a local or state allowance.

Rule 1403 is something the aqmd (aqmd.gov) has to regulate asbestos in demolition/renovation. The exemptions are at the very end of the 27 page document. Save the next person some reading.

Would it be a safe assumption that it should be fine to walk over the scraped cutback/concrete surface, without wetting it for a week or two,(when I'll have time to start with the porcelain)? Oh sure. If you scrape it and wipe up, you've got anything loose off of it.

I'll be going with unlabeld black plastic bags twisted and sealed with duct tape. Double them over like a goose neck!!

Thanks
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maintenance 6
What you've said is pretty accurate. I applaud you for doing your research. Asbestos in flooring is in a pretty heavy matrix of other materials, so it doesn't become airborne very easily. As mentioned, keep it wetted. Dispose of your wetted material in double 6 mil poly bags. Black non-see through are best. Twist and duct tape the ends closed when full. Transport of the stuff to the landfill will be sketchy. You are not licensed to haul hazardous waste. If you'd get stopped hauling labelled bags of asbestos versus unlabelled bags of trash......well............... you figure it out. Make sure your respirator is N95 rated with P100 cartridges. Your wet wipe up rags need to go in the trash with the other materials as do your coveralls. Mix a little detergent in your spray bottle to break the surface tension of the water. It will penetrate better. A HEPA vac is for dry work which you shouldn't be doing. Use some common sense. If you let it dry, it will become dusty. Once everything is scraped up and wiped up, there is nothing left to become dust. Who's rule is 1403? In most states, homeowners can remove their own asbestos. They may be exempt from work rules imposed by the EPA and OSHA, but they are not magically immune to the effects of asbestos fibers, so just because you can doesn't mean you should take un-necessary risks.

Thanks for the response.
I picked up a P100 respirator at the big orange box store for $25, P100 refills are $15 for two. Excellent.
Also picked up a 2 gal Garden Sprayer for $15. That's what we use. I picked up a wonder bar, scrape and pry bar, a long handled razor scraper, a bucket and a mop. Throw the mop head away when you're done. Also some cheap razor scrapers from the dollar store.

As for a detergent, would a few parts of dish washing soap, laundry detergent, or a cleaner/degreaser product like simple green be recommended? Dish soap is good

Thanks for clarifying the HEPA vac question. I had thought there might be some special wet vac hepa type deal that the pros use. There is, but you don't want to spend that much $$$

As to hauling/labeling the asbestos containing bags, I had read that locally you are allowed to haul up to 125 lbs. of this potentially hazardous material.
http://www.lacitysan.org/solid_resou...v3_English.pdf Cool, must be a local or state allowance.

Rule 1403 is something the aqmd (aqmd.gov) has to regulate asbestos in demolition/renovation. The exemptions are at the very end of the 27 page document. Save the next person some reading.

Would it be a safe assumption that it should be fine to walk over the scraped cutback/concrete surface, without wetting it for a week or two,(when I'll have time to start with the porcelain)? Oh sure. If you scrape it and wipe up, you've got anything loose off of it.

I'll be going with unlabeld black plastic bags twisted and sealed with duct tape. Double them over like a goose neck!!

Thanks
Okay, day one done. The living room came up the easiest so far. Dining area, was slightly tougher. The Kitchen forced a stoppage after an hour of very little progress.
The tyveks and respirator take some getting used to. I wetted everything down again before I stopped and bagged the tyvek.

The mastic seems brittle and black, it looks like 1/4 circles.

Last edited by jimbriam; 01-22-2012 at 10:10 AM. Reason: Removed a question that was asked and answered! Thanks
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:12 PM   #9
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Before all the regulations hit, I was tearing out the asbestos to get to the lead pipes... Noone ever told me that id be brain dead at 33...



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Old 01-21-2012, 11:29 PM   #10
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I've been dead for many years---I remove my first asbestos floor in 1968---
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:50 PM   #11
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I've been dead for many years---I remove my first asbestos floor in 1968---
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:17 PM   #12
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Okay, day one done. The living room came up the easiest so far. Dining area, was slightly tougher. The Kitchen forced a stoppage after an hour of very little progress.
The tyveks and respirator take some getting used to. I wetted everything down again before I stopped and bagged the tyvek.

The mastic seems brittle and black, it looks like 1/4 circles. Yep. That's the way it's put down.
Nobody said it would be easy. By the way, eating or drinking is not permitted in an active work area.
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:49 AM   #13
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Nobody said it would be easy. By the way, eating or drinking is not permitted in an active work area.
Thanks all for the responses.
This is what it looks like right now.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

Yes, absolutely no eating/drinking in the work area. I had my meals/drink out by the garage. The bathroom was saved for last. The sheeting in the kitchen and bathroom is the worst of it and is also the smallest space. 1) Is it sufficient to get down to the cardboard for the vinyl sheeting or down to the adhesive?

The removal has gone well and everything has been removed and disposed of properly from the dining, living, and kitchen. We gave it a thorough wipe down with rags and mopped the floors thoroughly to pick up any small pieces. All the rags and mops were bagged. All the tools were rinsed and wiped down. The tyveks were bagged as well. Our shoes were wiped down with damp towels and all the clothing was washed separately. I'll be doing it all again today since I didn't finish the bathroom!

The bathroom is taking longer then I expected. There's at least 3 layers in that room and they're all stubborn. I should have it finished today.

Now, before I move onto the 18x18 porcelain tile installation.

I found a few cracks in the concrete. One area has me concerned because it sounds hollow and the cracks seem to meet at that area. See the pictures in the link.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
2) How should these cracks be addressed before I proceed with the tile installation? And would crack isolation layer be recommended in this installation?

3) Are these surfaces "clean" enough for a SLC/ThinSet?
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

oh'mike: you recommended a two part thin set for installation over the cutback. 4) Which of these merkrete products would be suitable?
ThinSets:
http://www.merkrete.com/literature/MK700PS8.5x11.pdf (Unmodified)
http://www.merkrete.com/literature/MK150LA8.5x11.pdf (Latex Additive)
http://www.merkrete.com/literature/MK735PF8.5x11.pdf (Modified)
http://www.merkrete.com/literature/MK750RSTS8.5x11.pdf (Rapid Set Modified)
http://www.custombuildingproducts.co...er=diy&lang=en (Modified)

SLC:
http://www.merkrete.com/literature/MKUSL8.5x11.pdf (SLC)
http://www.merkrete.com/literature/MK626P8.5x11.pdf (Primer)

I haven't checked the levelness of the floor, but my first impressions are that it seems okay except for the aforementioned cracks and a spot in the kitchen where they trenched some plumbing. I'll have to check later today. For my size of tile, what is the threshold for levelness 1/8" over 10' span?
See this picture in the link.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

I have never laid tile before. At this point can I hire someone to do install or is installing this size tile not too far out of my reach?

Would a 1/2" x 1/2" trowel be recommended for my size tile?
What size gap should I leave along the walls for the tile?
What size grout lines? I was thinking 1/8"
Is a white recommended over grey thin sets?

Thanks again!
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:10 PM   #14
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Information over load----

What size tile again?---
I'm not familiar with that brand---two part never has failed me---Teck Dawg mentioned a high quality modified thinset that is approved over cut back.

Yes to an isolation membrane in that crack area----Mike----
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Old 01-30-2012, 02:28 PM   #15
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Information over load----

What size tile again?---
I'm not familiar with that brand---two part never has failed me---Teck Dawg mentioned a high quality modified thinset that is approved over cut back.

Yes to an isolation membrane in that crack area----Mike----
My apologies for being longwinded, again I'm just trying to be specific and provide the relevant information. Thanks for the reply.

The tile is an 18"x18" rectified porcelain tile. I'm debating between 1/16" and 1/8" grout lines. Care to share any insights?

I think I will be going with Merkrete 735 Premium Flex (Modified Thinset) as it mentions it is suitable for well bonded cutback.

A few questions about prep:
1) Will the hollow sound come back to bite me in the ass if I install the tile over it? How/Should I do further investigation?

2) If I use 735 Premium Flex that allows some for some flex, should I skip the isolation membrane?

3) When I pour the SLC do I need to pre-patch the cracks or will the SLC do the job of filling the cracks? My layers would be: Concrete, cutback, SLC, 735 Premium Flex Thinset, Porcelain Tile.

4) How flat should my floor be? No more then an 1/8" over 10' span?

I spent this past weekend picking up my tiles and laminate wood.
I'll probably use next weekend to do the prep work (addressing the cracks, the hollowness, and the leveling).

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