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Unintended kitchen remodel

77K views 191 replies 21 participants last post by  Sheila4467 
#1 ·
We moved into our latest house (made in late-70’s) just over a year ago. For most of that time, there was a little water periodically weeping out from underneath the brick wall in front of the house. We didn’t see any signs of water damage inside the house, so we thought it was probably rain water that had penetrated the brick. With all the issues of a newly-acquired house, it was low priority.

However, the outside leakage recently became much worse, even though we haven’t had much rain recently. It looked like the water might be coming from our kitchen. It was time to determine what was really happening.

Our house is on a slab, and is one story at that part of the house. The kitchen adjacent to the front wall is about 17 ft wide, with a sink in the middle (under a window), and the fridge on the right corner. First I pulled the bottom of the cabinet out from under the sink, so I could see underneath. There was definitely some evidence of moisture along the bottom wall plate, but couldn’t tell the source. I then pulled off the baseboard trim behind the fridge. Gads, the bottom plate was soaked!! :eek:

That did it. We were going to have to get into the wall in a major way to figure this out. Unfortunately, this required demolishing a significant part of the kitchen.

Although remodeling this dated kitchen was something we wanted to do EVENTUALLY, it was NOT in the short-term budget. However, it didn’t look like we had any choice.

Here are pictures of the kitchen before demolition, and shots of the advanced water leakage from outside.
 

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#2 ·
Demolition begins

We figured there were two possible sources for the water: 1) leakage from the kitchen sink (incoming water or drainage); 2) leakage from the ice maker water supply. To fully explore, the sink cabinet and all base cabinets to the right had to be removed.

So, after emptying all the kitchen cabinets in the target area, I disassembled the kitchen sink. This was more involved than I expected, particularly since I was trying to salvage as many parts as possible:

- Removed the water supply tubes
- Carefully disassembled all the drain tubing
- Removed the faucet and instant hot dispenser (faucet and tank), both of which I installed since moving in, so they’re fairly new
- Removed the electrical outlet I installed under the cabinet for the hot water dispenser
- Disconnected the dishwasher drain tube
- Disconnected the electric line to the disposal
- Removed the disposal
- …and finally, removed the sink itself.

Whew. Lots of pieces/tasks!
 

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#3 ·
Out with the cabinets

After removing the electrical outlets/switches on the wall, it was time to rip off the backsplash. It was made of laminated ¾” fiber board. Since I only had to remove to the sink, I sawed apart the countertop to left of the sink with a reciprocating saw. The base cabinets were built in a long run, and I’d already destroyed the sink portion when I first looked for the leak, so I just cut out the remaining parts of the sink section of the cabinet, then pulled out the remaining base cabinet section (after sawing out the nails used to attach them to the wall).
 

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#4 ·
Discovery

Next I ripped out the lower half of the drywall. Then I cut and pulled out the exposed insulation.

At this point, I could discover the source of the leak: The copper tubing in the wall supplying the icemaker valve had a 90 degree elbow fitting that was soldered poorly by the last idiot plumber to work on it. This was apparently a repair job after the house was built, since a 1’ square piece of plywood was used as a patch between the supply valve and the drywall. Apparently the vertical copper pipe was only inserted into the elbow about 1 millimeter before they soldered it. This very weak joint apparently developed a small leak (due to vibration or a bump to the exterior valve; who knows). Over time the leak got worse, causing the exterior water leakage. The plywood patch was difficult to cut out, and the vibrations of the effort apparently caused the joint to fail completely. Fortunately I had turned off the house water beforehand.
 

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#5 ·
Initial repairs

So, first I had to fix the leak, so I could turn the water back on. I torched the old elbow off the pipes, and you can see by the pictures the difference between the good joint and the bad one.

To make sure the pipe would fit fully into the new elbow fixture, I first had to extend the vertical pipe about ½ centimeter. To do this, I first used emery cloth to sand down and clean the pipe to shiny copper. I cut the errant pipe about 3 inches down, and reconnected the cut piece using a coupling. This gave me enough extra length to seat the end firmly into the new elbow. (I didn’t have extra tubing, and it was getting too late to go to the store for supplies; fortunately I had the right size coupling from a previous project).

So, this gave me a total of 4 joints to solder. Not the best-looking solder job I’ve done (not by far), but it worked!:whistling2:
 

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#6 ·
Collateral damage

Part 1:
Unfortunately, the icemaker valve I thought was open when I started soldering was actually closed. Oops!! When we turned the water supply back on, the valve started leaking, probably because the heat from the soldering built up pressure/heat in the valve. So, off with the water, and another trip to the store to get a replacement valve.

Part 2:
When I initially turned off the house water supply, I knew it would be off for a while. Accordingly, I turned off the circuits to our two hot water heaters, and turned off the water supply shutoffs at the tanks. After I finished with the kitchen plumbing, I went to open the shutoffs. Unfortunately, one of them started leaking through the valve stem. Since this was late at night, I simply closed the :censored: thing and went to sleep.

So, normal repair would be to remove the valve stem and change out the bushing gasket. Tried. However, I couldn’t get the handle to come off, and I couldn’t pull the valve stem assembly out of the fixture. I didn’t want to force anything, because I had enough to deal with without also having to replace a battered shutoff valve. So I applied a trick I had recently learned on some Youtube video: I wrapped the exposed stem about 7-8 times with Teflon tape, and then screwed the packing nut back down securely. This did the trick!
 

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#7 · (Edited)
Cleanup time

Now it’s time to clean out the wall. The water leached up the plywood sheathing a couple feet, and had turned black. The base of some of the studs and the bottom plate were sopping. To tackle, we cleaned out and scraped up the surface gunk (wet insulation, dirt, etc.). Then we sprayed the affected areas with a 50/50 water/bleach solution. After running a box fan over the area overnight and most of the next day, we continued scraping away gunk and re-treating with the water/bleach solution.

Next considerations:

- Determine what repairs to do to the damaged studs. Once totally dried out, will see what solid wood is left. I was thinking of sistering some 2x4 lengths beside the existing studs. However, the damage might not be significant enough to warrant it (I hope).

- Determine what to do about the bottom plate. May have to cut out a section and replace.

- Determine what to do with the sheathing. We are treating the inside of the sheathing. The main challenge is that the brick wall on the outside is connected to the sheathing, so there’s no accessing the exterior part of the sheathing without tearing down the brick wall. Is there any way to avoid this?? I’m going to post the issue separately to get some input/advice.

- We traced the water damage to the wall at the corner of the room. On the other side of the wall is the front door. I need to remove some trim to see to what extent the water made there, and what the damage might be.
 

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#8 ·
Doing dishes manually? Yuck!!

After a few nights of washing dishes manually in the utility room sink, my wife requested that I get the dishwasher started up again. Previously the dishwasher drain tube was connected to the kitchen sink disposal. I went to the local big box, and one of the orange apron folks helped me come up with a nifty coupling method: Using my old drain pipes, I re-installed the trap and added a former drop pipe with the end cut off. I fit this into a rubber coupling which transitioned from my thin-walled 1 ½” pipe to a larger PVC pipe size (sorry, can’t remember what it’s called). On the other side of the coupling I fitted a PVC bushing, which had a screw hole into which I screwed in a 3” long nipple-type fitting that would accept the end of the dishwasher drain tube. Once the pipe clamps were tightened, it made a sweet connection.

That took care of the drainage. However, I forgot about the water supply. I reconnected the supply line to the hot water shutoff valve, but I'd failed to obtain a cap for the 2nd outlet of the valve (which previously fed the sink's hot water). Yet another trip to the store in the morning… :wallbash:
 

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#10 ·
Sheathing update



Thanks. I was curious too! I posted the issue today: http://www.diychatroom.com/f2/water-damage-exterior-wall-59538/

I was very pleased with the replies, which indicated that I didn't have to worry about the exterior side of the plywood, since it's faced with brick. I only need to dry it out thoroughly, use a wood hardener on the damanged areas, and put 'er back together again (preferably using a mold-resistant drywall like Denshield. Still an open question about whether replacing the plastic vapor barrier is a good idea -- we'll see.

Meanwhile, my wife's been continuing work on cleaning up the wood (sorry, only room for one of us in the space :whistling2:), and here's a couple updated photos. The wood's looking much better than when the drywall first came off!
 

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#13 ·
...I'm thinking that DW drain is Temp :wink:
We do not have one yet
Kitchen remodel is still in the future
Yep, you know how these things go. "Temp" can last a long time with these projects -- particularly the unplanned ones.

Meanwhile, it's nice to have a dishwasher again! Don't know how you can do without. Guess you're not as spoiled as (we didn't know) we are...
 
#14 ·
Our kitchen is original - mid 50's
When we bought the house it came with the kitchen stepstool
Required to reach ANY cabinet in the kitchen
For all I know it has been passed down by owners since the 50's
Everything WAS original
I have replaced the counter top with a free one from someone & installed a new faucet
I've installed some Temp free cabinets that will end up in the garage

Built a sunroom off the kitchen & opened the wall
Plus opening up a bigger doorway to dining room
So wife knew it had to wait until larger construction was completed

Plan anything you want to do in the kitchen if this will be THE renovation & not just Temp stuff
One reason we have waited & done Temp measures
To be able to plan it out & buy some nice "stuff"

We already have new fridge, stove & microwave
Spreads the expense out some
 
#15 ·
Final things to check

On the other side of the wall adjacent to the leak is our front door. Knowing some water might have leaked that far, I pulled some trim to take a look. Not so bad (not as bad as the photo looks), but some water had got there. Treated it with bleach mixture, let it dry for a couple days, and put the trim back.


Of course, the trim didn't fully-cooperate when removing. The upper-corner miter was connected with a surprisingly large nail. When I pulled the vertical trim off, it cracked the horizontal piece. I glued and nailed the broken piece back on and caulked it a bit. With some paint, it will be invisible.


Also checked under the door threshold. Again, not a real problem. Bleached that too (just to make sure), and let it dry as well (fortunately the storm door, along with recently mild Texas weather, made this tolerable for a mid-December effort).

So, after the holidays, it will be time to stop taking things apart, and start putting things together!
 

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#17 ·
Wood hardening

Today I decided to apply wood hardener to the wood affected by the water damage – mostly the sill (sole plate?) and stud bottoms, but also to the plywood sheathing where it was damaged by water and repair efforts (i.e., scraping, etc.). First, had to finish cleaning up. Really helps to have a shop vac for this type of work.

Then to the hardener. Instructions say to use a disposable bristle brush. Decided to use a toothbrush from an airline amenity kit, plus a plastic cup to hold the liquid. However, I didn’t realize that the hardener would eat right through the bottom of the cup!! :eek: (Wife said: “I could have told you that would happen.” :furious:) At least I could let the leaking cup drip all over the sill sections, so it didn’t go to waste (except the portion that soaked into my sweat pants; a lasting reminder of my stupidity). Dug out a glass jar to finish the job.

Also, the toothbrush didn’t work as well as a purchased cheap brush would have. The bristles of the toothbrush just don’t hold as much liquid as a real brush. I was constantly having to dip into the jar, causing uneven application and dripping on the floor. Not a disaster, but a reminder that it’s always best to use the right tool for the job.

Such a simple task became so complex… – as they usually do.
 

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#18 ·
I'm really enjoying this thread

Because of all the detail, and how I can relate to your experience. Having bought my house just a few months ago, I've found many hidden problems also, so I sympathize. Plus every project I do always has some "collateral damage" (like the door frame) but some good news also (like not removing the brick wall).
 
#19 ·
Thanks RST. I'm intentionally putting in a lot of detail. I also like detailed showcases, and figure those of us who don't come from "the trades" can learn a lot from seeing the many specific steps that the pros will often ignore or gloss over.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out my next steps. I know I have to insulate and drywall. However, to drywall, I have to remove more cabinets (including the coveted dishwasher!), and I'm not ready for that step yet. :no:

More importantly, though, is what to do about new cabinetry. I've been using a couple free software options to model out a new kitchen: Project Dragonfly (http://dragonfly.autodesk.com/designer), and IKEA Home Planner (downloadable at www.ikea.com). Both have limitations, since none can handle everything I'm trying to model. I may have to bite the bullet and spend some bucks to get something more versatile.

Key decision is whether to buy stock cabinets, consider semi- or custom-made... -- or make my own. I'm seriously considering the last option. I've got time, space and most tools, and it'd be a great excuse to get more/better tools! :thumbup: I've made some cabinets before, and I think I could handle it -- with the right tools. I've GOT to upgrade my contractor table saw for something that can handle the big sheets. If I can also (finally) get a router table, and maybe a jointer and a pocket screw jig, I might be set.

A major consideration is cost, since this was NOT a budgeted project. If I can determine that DIY cabinetry is a signficant savings, then I'm probably taking that path.

Meanwhile, still researching.........
 
#20 ·
Since this is a major part of your home, and you are going to spend a considerable amount of TIME on this part of the project, I would suggest that you furnish the kitchen with cabinets that you will be very proud of, regardless of purchase or DIY. If you decide on going DIY, get everything you need right from the beginning, INCLUDING THE TIME INVOLVED! It's seems to be a huge consideration when a remodel is in process. A combination of purchased, and DIY can be a serious consideration, I have seen many of them, and wow were they ever wonderful.

I only mention this because shortcuts often evolve in situations like this, and the last thing you want is, a bunch of regrets when you have worked so hard. I know, I have done this myself, and wouldn't wish it on anyone.

It's going to cost you money, and a lot of hard work, so make it the best from the beginning. The reward is sooooo worth it.

I loved all of your repair examples, and I so agree, that showing all the details helps the novice. Like ME! Thank you for some Very Good Examples.

Good luck, and keep us posted of what you decide. I would love to watch.
 
#21 ·
Sheila, thanks for the kind words and advice. My philosophy on DIY is that I want my projects to turn out BETTER than a pro would do (if possible). (...Okay, maybe my soldering isn't up to that yet, but that's the exception that proves the rule! :yes: )

Time is something I've got, being I'm (prematurely) retired. However, the "premature" means budget is more of a consideration than for most. We'll take our time figuring this out, but I'm looking forward to getting rolling with this again.

Meanwhile, I've had a distraction: I might be changing out my electrical distribution panel before I progress much more with the kitchen. I know I'll be reworking the lighting and outlet setup during the renovation, and will likely need to add a circuit or two. However, I have a Federal Pacific panel from when the house was built in the 70's, and they're notorious for breakers failing to engage when needed -- major fire hazard. Also, I understand that replacement breakers are harder to find and more expensive. So instead of adding more risk to this risky situation, I need to switch out the box with a new panel. I'm looking at doing this as a DIY project. But I won't be able to approach this for a few weeks, at least (more, if the unusually cold weather persists).

Regardless, I'll be sure to keep posting as things progress.
 
#22 ·
I envy you not, but admire & appreciate your expressive details & dedication to solving some problematic issues. Pics are exceptionally clear. Thanks for sharing your adventure AND thanx a mil for using a larger font (makes it easier for those of us that read 'til our eyes are popping out of our heads!) :eek::laughing:

Keep up the great job, look forward to seeing how it goes.

Happy New Year & God Bless!
 
#23 ·
itsdanf,
It's so wonderful to know that time is not an issue, lately I have watched so many "botched" jobs just because all of a sudden a panic hits, and boom, a piece of art turns into a sad repair.
I feel a lot like you, I want my DIY projects to be the best I can possibly make them. From past experience with my kitchen, I found it the hardest to adjust to. Having to eat, and feed 5 others everyday, created a very stressful situation for me. However, I learned my first real lesson on that project. Don't let inconvience and frustration change the "Master Plan"

(and not to take down wall cabinets alone)

I'm still a novice at DIY, so advice is not something I have any rights to, but concern from my own past experience leads me to ask. I guess being a mother for so many years, makes me too quick to suggest.

Our situations seem to be about the same. I have all the time I need, and the budget is my biggest consideration.

It's great that your going to start with the electric, I think it's the most important issue in a kitchen. Switching out the box for a new panel will be such a relief. No worries about the basics, and a clean slate for your kitchen project.

It's obvious by your photos that you take your projects seriously, and you did a beautiful job on the leak, and now that it's not an issue anymore, you can take all the time you want to consider what you want to do with your kitchen. I call that a real success.

We are prematurely retired too, and although we have lots of time, we have chosen to use a strict budget, and to finish our projects with no debt.

I look forward to seeing what's to come, and to tons of photos too.
 
#24 ·
Insulation

While I’m waiting to figure out cabinets and prep to replace the electric distribution breaker panel, I decided it was time to put insulation back into the wall. After all, despite “global warming” theories, it’s more like the ice age outside!! A pretty straight-forward job – but not without a few hiccups!

I had to remove the remaining old insulation, trim off the remaining plastic vapor barrier, and install the new paper-faced fiberglass batting (R-13). Hiccup #1 occurred while removing the remaining old insulation. I discovered the skeleton of a mouse that apparently climbed into the wall to take its final nap. :eek: It appears to be years old.

Fortunately I've seen no evidence of extra residences of this kind in the 14 months we’ve lived here. :no: :thumbsup:
 

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#25 · (Edited)
Insulation (cont'd)

Once the old stuff was removed, I started cutting the roll of fiberglass batting. Roll out to measure, place a piece of scrap plywood below, cut by running a utility knife along a scrap piece of 1x2 while standing on it, place the strip between the studs (cutting holes for outlets, etc.), fold the paper flaps over and staple. Piece of cake!

Hiccup #2 (okay, not really a “hiccup”) was deciding what to do about insulating around the copper tubing where the original leak occurred. I posted a thread on the main site (http://www.diychatroom.com/f2/insulation-around-plumbing-61297/), and got good feedback. Based on that, I went to one of the local the big box stores, bought a sheet of ¾” insulation board (R4), and cut it to fit snugly, side-to-side, within the stud cavity. I pressed it into the back of the cavity (against outside wall sheathing), and then put in the fiberglass over it. I tried to press the batting behind the plumbing, so that the outside-facing side would get all the insulation and the inside to warm from the inside of the house; however, with the foam board installed, there was not enough room to squeeze in much batting. Not a big deal.
 

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#26 ·
Insulation (concluded)

Once everything was stapled up, I figured a simple job had been completed with no real problems. Alas, this thought occurred while I was sitting on the floor between the wall and the fridge. Trying to get up in that tight space, I ran into hiccup #3: My elbow hit the shutoff valve handle, and water sprayed up in a nice pretty fountain. ARRGH!!! :furious:

Fortunately not much water got out before I shut it off. Only one towel needed. A bit of drying time, and all will be fine.

Meanwhile, I need a break….:drink:
 

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#28 · (Edited)
Electrical Survey

Thanks Lali!

Meanwhile, to prepare for changing out the main breaker panel (a Federal Pacific, a discontinued brand which has a history of breakers failing to break – not a good situation), I decided to do a detailed circuit map of the house. We measured all the walls of the house (took quite a while), and then created computerized floor plans (using free Project Dragonfly software; took even longer ).

Next step was to annotate on the floor layouts every switch, light fixture, outlet and installed appliance in the house. It was a larger job than I expected. We have over 90 outlets alone!

Next step was to go circuit hunting. My wife and I turned on all the lights, and started flipping circuit breakers to determine where the circuits are. It really helped to have walkie-talkies, particularly when we were trying to coordinate our searches out of ear shot. Also helped to have a night light to plug into outlets. In many rooms, there was more than one circuit covering the outlets, and many circuits covered outlets in more than one room.

I now have floor plans with details of my whole electric layout, with each outlet and fixture annotated with their associated circuit breaker number. I also made a separate list by breaker number, detailing everything on each circuit. Not only will this help me on planning for the panel swap, it will also be a great reference tool going forward whenever I have any electrical issues.

Next step will be to analyzing existing circuit loads. I’ll evaluate whether I should upgrade my panel capacity while I’m swapping, and whether I need to adjust any existing circuits that might be too overloaded. I currently have 200A service, with a 200A main panel, and a 100A sub-panel (not wired to the main panel, but branched out immediately from the meter; it's newer and doesn't need replacing).

SIDE NOTE: I’m including a photo of the panel with the cover removed – only photo I have available. Don’t worry, I didn’t do today’s exercise with an opened/exposed panel! Also, please ignore the dead wasps in the bottom of the panel. They got in during the summer through the service head, through the meter and into the panel. :eek: I’ve already coordinated with the electric company folks to seal that pathway up on the meter side. :yes:
 

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