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Old 06-02-2012, 10:51 PM   #6466
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Gulf Island Building.


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That will work, some of the folks down this way let the cedar age and the nails do look bad. I had a really intelligent architect who graduated from Harvard (and made it a point to let everyone know that) who insisted that I blind nail the cedar siding on the guest house. I told the dummy it would not work but he was going to have his way. When you could stick your hand under the siding where it warped, the owner asked why it did that and I happily told her. Then we had to go back and renail the siding which would also be nailed wrong as cedar should never be nailed at the top and bottom, it will split most times.

Some times we would get some smooth hot dipped Galv nails that did good but the rough Galv nails weren't worth a cuss.
It's hard to tell these university grads anything, isn't it Jim..

We had a huge siding job on a complex in Vancouver many years ago, and they had imported bundles of the most perfect Luaun wood siding you have ever seen. Not a knot in sight, perfectly machined with round edges top and bottom...perfect as perfect could be. It came all wrapped up in sealed plastic wrapping. Truckloads of the stuff. When I asked about it, thinking that it would have been VERY expensive, I was told that they got a great deal on the lot.

The architect insisted that we nail these boards on with the nails aimed up at an angle of 15 so that water would not run up them! I asked him if he had ever heard of capillary action - which apparently he had not - and I further asked him if he had got anyone to do any testing with these beautiful boards. Evidently not.

You know what's coming next I bet.

Now, while Luaun is a beautiful wood in it's hardwood form (not so much in plywood form) exposing one side to rain while the other side was protected, I thought was just asking for trouble. Particularly since there was no finish of any kind on this wood. Unlike cedar, which is a very forgiving wood - much like redwood - luaun is the exact opposite.

I requested a site visit by the architect, along with his written instructions as to precisely how we were to nail this wood, what kind of nails etc. This was obviously a CYA request, as I could already smell the trouble coming.

He was only too pleased to visit and try to impress us with his credentials - much like your man from Harvard - so I went so far as to ask him to have the honour of driving the first nail in the siding while I held the board for him.

Have you ever seen an architect try to dive a nail at 15? It was just about the funniest thing we had ever seen. A pencil he could manage...but a hammer...hahahahaha!

Using his instructions to the letter (except for the 15 part) we sided an end wall on one of the big buildings. At the end of the day it looked absolutely stunning and I took a few pictures. If my memory serves me this was on a Friday, and the following weekend was typical Vancouver weather, in other words rain, and lots of it.

On Monday morning, my worst fears were realized and this siding was barely recognizable from the way we left it on Friday.

I called the architect to come out again, and I also called CMHC, which was the governing body in Canada for the building code at the time (still is) to see what we might be able to do to prevent this situation from re-occurring.

None of us could believe what we saw. Boards all cupped and twisted, wood pulled right off some of the nails, all in all it was a nightmare.

I had already formulated my opinion as to what should be done with this wood, and that was to treat it back and front with their choice of a water resistant stain, and use a headed nail for the application. And for Pete's sake, let us do some test areas before we waste any more of your money! And never mind any of this silly 15 nonsense.

We all headed back to the CMHC office in Vancouver for a round table discussion - by this time the site super and building owner were involved.

It so happened that one of the CMHC reps and I were familiar with each other, having had earlier conversations regarding some UFFI troubles which I was able to help with.

The proffered suggestions were finally accepted by all parties, not without some heated debate, but accepted nonetheless, and the hunt was on for a good siding stain. The old grey matter is a little fuzzy here, but I think we were able to use Cabot...just about the best stain ever made.

We got the site super to spring for a big tent rental so we could do all the staining under cover, and of course got a nice extra contract for all that work as well.

It did work as we had hoped, and both CMHC and the building owner gave their final approval after the test sections had been on for two weeks in all weathers and showed no problems.

I'm glad that you mentioned about nailing siding top and bottom and the high possibility of splitting. Lap siding is easy to do properly, because you know exactly where the lower board comes to and can put your nail just a hair above the lower board. Bevel siding, you need to make sure that you have a little extra space just in case the top board isn't as high as you might think.

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Old 06-03-2012, 07:26 AM   #6467
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That sounds about right for them fellows, There have been several times I have bumped heads with them and some engineers also. Can you believe an engineer would sign off on 2X8 floor joist on a 20 foot span and that was the floor joist for the second floor. Man talk about bowed and bouncy, nothing was right up stairs, and the contractor on the job couldn't see anything wrong. After trying to correct one door up stairs I told the contractor I was walking on that job, I didn't want my name anywhere on that job. The sad part is it was in one of the more upscale parts of town.

That contractor would hire some off the street low dollar folks to do his work and then call me to straighten it out for him. I told him he was losing money doing that. I could write a book about some of the things some architects would have drawn that just would not work on the job but they would argue on and on until you showed them and told them to give it a shot themselves.

Now that you have mentioned sealing both sides of wood, I have a question for you. I am still plugging away with our camper and am about 2/3 done with the plywood for the roof, (told you I was slow). I plan to glue and staple 1/4 plywood to the ceiling after the roof is finished, then I will install the 3/8" T&G cedar to the bottom side of the plywood but using the plywood as strengthening only for the roof system.

I have 1 1/2 inch rigid Styrofoam as insulation. Would there be an advantage to sealing both sides of the T&G. I leave two windows cracked and a ceiling vent open all year round for ventilation so the inside of the camper is exposed to the higher humidity of the outside. I know you know how to seal wood living in the North West of us or the South West of Canada, I have seen your work sealed being outside for years and still look new.

By the way, you started your pond and garden area after I started the camper roof and look at all you have gotten done and how little I have. Just amazing.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:10 AM   #6468
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Gulf Island Building.


A 20 foot span on 2 x 8's...he wasn't building a floor Jim, he was building a trampoline. He must have forgotten to tell you that.

Let me pass along another comment I read. Bart Prince is one of my all time favourite architects, always thinks way outside the box and has some really spectacular buildings under his belt.

Apparently, he wanted a builder to use a 30 foot 2 x 6 for some floor joists, and the builder refused. I wonder why. Anyway, Bart told him, well, if you can't do it, I will. And that is written up in Bart's book which he wrote himself! I honestly couldn't believe it.

To this day I hope it's a typographical error, because there's no way in hell that could work. And secondly, where do you buy a 30 foot long 2 x 6?

Now, as far as sealing both sides of that cedar, that might be a most excellent idea. I do understand that you will have ventilation in there - always a good thing - but it could happen that a very small amount of moisture may get trapped on the high side of that cedar. And being so thin, it just might show minor signs of warping. So, I think I would be inclined to seal both sides...your idea is a good one.

One other thing you can do when you are putting the boards up is this. Look at the end of each board and install it with the curve of the grain facing upwards. Of course, if the T & G is cut in such a way that it will not reverse, that idea is out the window. Is this the aromatic cedar that comes from Tennessee?
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Old 06-03-2012, 01:14 PM   #6469
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Gulf Island Building.


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A 20 foot span on 2 x 8's...he wasn't building a floor Jim, he was building a trampoline. He must have forgotten to tell you that.

Let me pass along another comment I read. Bart Prince is one of my all time favourite architects, always thinks way outside the box and has some really spectacular buildings under his belt.

Apparently, he wanted a builder to use a 30 foot 2 x 6 for some floor joists, and the builder refused. I wonder why. Anyway, Bart told him, well, if you can't do it, I will. And that is written up in Bart's book which he wrote himself! I honestly couldn't believe it.

To this day I hope it's a typographical error, because there's no way in hell that could work. And secondly, where do you buy a 30 foot long 2 x 6?

Now, as far as sealing both sides of that cedar, that might be a most excellent idea. I do understand that you will have ventilation in there - always a good thing - but it could happen that a very small amount of moisture may get trapped on the high side of that cedar. And being so thin, it just might show minor signs of warping. So, I think I would be inclined to seal both sides...your idea is a good one.

One other thing you can do when you are putting the boards up is this. Look at the end of each board and install it with the curve of the grain facing upwards. Of course, if the T & G is cut in such a way that it will not reverse, that idea is out the window. Is this the aromatic cedar that comes from Tennessee?
Keith that has to be a typographical error, I have never heard of anyone doing that and like you, where would he buy a 30' 2X6, the longest we can get is 24'.

No, the cedar is Western cedar, but nothing like the beautiful stuff you have, this is full of tight knots. We don't use much of the aromatic red cedar except for maybe closet liners and cedar chests down this way. I like the smell of it for about 30 minutes when working with it then it starts to stink to me.

Keith, I really do appreciate the advise, I will be sure to completely seal it, the bad part is there is only way the T&G will go up as the back is scored.
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Old 06-03-2012, 10:07 PM   #6470
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Keith that has to be a typographical error, I have never heard of anyone doing that and like you, where would he buy a 30' 2X6, the longest we can get is 24'.

Keith, I will be sure to completely seal it, the bad part is there is only way the T&G will go up as the back is scored.
I was afraid that would be the case. It usually is.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:46 PM   #6471
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Not a lot done today mainly due to a bad foot and knee.

But I made a small octagonal addition to the corner of the front deck which will be used to hold a potted plant of some description.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:47 PM   #6472
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And made a small bench from some very stout wood...so at least I can sit down now.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:48 PM   #6473
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And the roof is now shingled.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:51 PM   #6474
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This is one of two water hyacinths I got yesterday. Pretty easy to plant these guys...instructions...drop in pond. Done.

They are supposed to multiply when the water warms up. If it ever warms up that is.
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Old 06-04-2012, 10:20 AM   #6475
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That planter and bench looks sharp, did you make the shakes yourself? I made some for a wishing well type roof for our yard swing a few years back, lot of work. Buddy, I can see the frogs now around the plants in your pond. I hope your knee and ankle get better soon.
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:39 PM   #6476
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That planter and bench looks sharp, did you make the shakes yourself? I made some for a wishing well type roof for our yard swing a few years back, lot of work. Buddy, I can see the frogs now around the plants in your pond. I hope your knee and ankle get better soon.
Those are sawn cedar shingles Jim. I haven't split any shakes for a long time. I picked them up several years ago at Demyxx up at Coombs for a steal.

We have hundreds of tadpoles swimming around in the pond now, so I expect the frog population will multiply pretty soon.

I still need to add the cap row of shingles to the top of that roof, and possibly a row of shingles along the front of the beam as well. I ripped them on the table saw this morning...just waiting for the rain to stop.
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Old 06-04-2012, 02:08 PM   #6477
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Gulf Island Building.


The discussion of the 20' 2x8's reminded me of a house that I had to reframe for a builder in Syracuse NY about 8 years ago.

We gave a framing bid that was "too high", and when the framers he hired left the job, after playing framer for 2 months and not getting it finished, we were hired to straighten it out.

Second floor joists were to be I joists, 9.5" 12" apart as the first floor room was 20'. The framer put them in at 16' centers and we had a real trampoline in that room.

By the way, they had loaded the room with 1/2" OSB for the roof in the center of the room.

We had to get the engineer out to tell us how to correct.

Fun times, our bill after straightening it out was more than our original bid to frame the whole house.

Fun times
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Old 06-04-2012, 03:22 PM   #6478
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The discussion of the 20' 2x8's reminded me of a house that I had to reframe for a builder in Syracuse NY about 8 years ago.

We gave a framing bid that was "too high", and when the framers he hired left the job, after playing framer for 2 months and not getting it finished, we were hired to straighten it out.

Second floor joists were to be I joists, 9.5" 12" apart as the first floor room was 20'. The framer put them in at 16' centers and we had a real trampoline in that room.

By the way, they had loaded the room with 1/2" OSB for the roof in the center of the room.

We had to get the engineer out to tell us how to correct.

Fun times, our bill after straightening it out was more than our original bid to frame the whole house.

Fun times
Welcome to the thread Framer.

I bet every half decent carpenter has one of those framing stories. And all the time there are cheapie contractors around, the supply of stories will never end. Let's face it, there are some things that you just have to bite the bullet and pay for.

I don't know how many times I've said it...but it always pays to do it right the first time instead of paying for it twice.
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Old 06-04-2012, 11:50 PM   #6479
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Fixrite, this one's for you. Can't send photos in a pm I don't think.

Anyway, after all my looking, all I found was this one fence. Everything else back then was masonry walls. All sorts of combinations of brick and stone, most of it really quite stunning.

If you Google arts & crafts fences, one of the pages that comes up is the Arts & Crafts magazine. I do have a few copies here somewhere, but can't put my hands on them right now. Go to the magazine and there you will find several links to what you are looking for.

Credit for this picture goes to the author of the book "Greene and Greene" by Randell L. Makinson.
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Old 06-04-2012, 11:54 PM   #6480
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Couple of roses out in the missus' garden today.
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