German House Rebuild - Page 33 - DIY Chatroom

concretemasonry · 10-27-2009, 11:21 PM

The construction on this job is the traditional method that is common in most of the world that has centuries of proven durability and economy. It is a "heat sink" with many benefits.- It is not like a "short term" lightweight frame structure with very little mass and real thermal resistance. A heavy, massive structure works much differently than one created by "pink panther" users that have little thermal, moisture and structural stability and more durability/mold moisture problems.

I don't recall or can't find any other reference to "Neopor" in this project. The concept of a vapor barrier/retarder is a recent vague concept created by the prescriptive codes in the wood frame using countries (U.S., Canada and possibly Tonga) that have moisture problems. The term "vapor retarder" is only vague code term and has no definitive meaning except that 6 mil poly is better than 4 mil, but not as good as 6 mil, which is far inferior to 10 mil, 12 mil or 20 mil, but still not absolute (only a defined code number for enforcement ease) if you are building by a prescriptive code for a certain type of structure. Look at the vapor transmission of a heavy masonry material based on the same testing criteria used for films and coatings. Also "moisture retarder" is also a very nebulous term that does not really represent the real conditions.

I defy anyone to define where the warm side and cold side on the wall is on this type of structure since the interior may be the warm side from January to March and the interior could be the cold side from April to August or September. That is why these types of structures (or similar) are the most commonly used type for residential construction in the developed world. - Even in Russia and Siberia, where timber is plentiful, heavyweight construction is the norm for the majority of housing and log homes are referred to as "building sheds/dachas out of fire wood", unless you have nothing easier and quicker to use.

Unfortunately, the North American codes, construction and practices are influenced by advertising, gimmick products, short structure life and an easy way to sell products and concepts that are not accepted by the rest of the developed world. the major developing countries (#1China and #2India, a close second) do not use or recommend lightweight construction because of thermal efficiency, ecology and life cycle costs. China values the ecological benefits of timber/wood and imports some from Russia/Siberia and SE Asia for rural/village construction. They also import wood from the U.S. to use and process for exports to other countries. they do use the good spruce for very expensive violins. Even the Russians know that the R19 fluff in a temporary lightweight wall might even give you as little as an R11 wall (short term test and much lower in a long term dynamic test) in the end, with no thermal mass benefits.

I suspect the "Dorf Dude" (Scott) will be opening the windows wide in February or March to release the heat from the appliances and TV. He may have to patch some areas of the stucco every 10 to 20 years, which will be minimal maintenace and there will be no mold. The mass will moderate the moisture and slowly absorb or release it over a long period of time.

Dick

shumakerscott · 10-28-2009, 05:09 PM

Gary, why did you take your post down? Now this blog has no flow. You changed your post from lot's of questions to "Be Safe". Dick was not beating you up, just educating you and all who read this. Keep asking questions, that's what this is about. Dorf dude...

concretemasonry · 10-28-2009, 05:55 PM

Gary - if you are out there, I apologize and didn't mean to beat up on you. I would like to get in a room with the pink panther and his advertising people though since some of it boarders on being criminal or at least misleading or inaccurate technically.

I didn't mean to be to critical, just wanted to points out the different types of construction concepts I have seen in my travels in 37 countries.

I guess I and naturally blunt and maybe I do have a little German in me, but my Norwegian relative go back to Charlemagne (Karl or Charles the Great), but many millions are also related to him.

Dick - The other Schu

shumakerscott · 10-28-2009, 06:21 PM

The house is going to be a kind of living being in a way. Moisture in , Moisture out. In it's own given time. It will be alive once I get the radiant heat going. dorf dude...

Shamus · 10-28-2009, 09:32 PM

Dick, your commentary is well stated and worth adding into this thread.

I too have experienced the efficiency's of walls made of 2' and 3' wide stone and on a couple occasions I had to deal with 22" brick walls. I've walked through English and German buildings in all seasons that are several hundred years old. Additionally I've worked on three in the US and Canada that had the same mass and although younger structures by comparison they all had one thing in common, thermal efficiency.
The skill of building stone structures was lost in the US not due to lack of a quarry to harvest it, but rather the lack of craftsmen to work it.

What was once a lean-to 200+ years ago in the US evolved into stick built structures. Homes in the US are unfortunately very inefficient and have barely enough integrity to make it 100 yrs.

Having said that, I make my living restoring 100+ yr old homes so don't mis-understand my point. As long as someone has the wherewithal to keep these buildings upright I will continue to do my best to extend their life.

DD, looking forward to seeing what you do with the interior. That to me will be the fun part. It will take a lot longer but you will have a warm place to sleep and a cold beer so what’s the hurry.

shumakerscott · 10-29-2009, 05:04 PM

I've been cleaning beams, still. I need a couple more, about 3 would be nice. I know that Seugast people are reading this. Can any one help me with a couple beams? 4 meter 50 long. Thanks, dorf dude...

GBR in WA · 10-29-2009, 08:09 PM

I'm back........ Sorry, I would have answered sooner due to problems. Anyway, I reread my post and it was counter-productive so I pulled it. Dick's general post had nothing to do with it, I feel the pink's way over-rated too when you start comparing. If you want an eye-opener, read about what the microwave does to your food! Keep up the hard work!
Be safe, Gary

zircon · 10-31-2009, 01:54 PM

I'm tuning in late to this discussion but FWIW I will relate my experience with both types of construction. About two years ago, I finished a Habitat house. I was Pres of the local Habitat chapter then and we did not have a construction manager so I was very involved. We built 6" stud walls with R19 and a very thick blanket of fiberglass in the attic, about 12" thick. A while ago I ran into the homeowner and she told me how impressed she was with her low heating bills. She had previously rented a drafty old house where she paid for utilities. She said that last Christmas she had the heat turned off and the house was warm just from the oven cooking a big dinner.

Meanwhile I live in a condo that was made from a large 1911 stone house that was converted into seven apartments. The walls are 24" thick masonry.
There is a 9" thick limestone facing and the rest is a heavy block tile. Our heating bills are outrageous. Yes about half of the windows are single pane but half have been converted to double pane but the windows are small relative to the size of the walls. I received a notice from our utility that the average home in the county paid $800 for heating while our bill for heating gas and hot water gas and one clothes dryer was $14,000 or $2000 per apartment. All things being equal, it should be easier to heat seven apartments since they share common walls. In the winter time while a room is warm because the boiler is cranking, if you touch an outside wall it is ICE cold. As far as thermal mass is concerned, if the heating goes out in a winter storm, the building stays warm longer that a stick frame, and in the summer when it gets hot out, it stays cool inside for a few days, but then it gets just as hot as outside. I Googled "insulating stone walls" a while ago and this is a common problem. Where people have room, they build an insulated wall within the stone wall to get some efficiency. The R value of stone is 1 per foot so our walls are R2 so we basically have no insulation.
Joe

concretemasonry · 10-31-2009, 03:15 PM

If you are talking about R-values, that is a small specialized part of comfort, conditioning and cost compared to the proven large history. Solar heating depends on the mass for storage.

Isolating the mass from the interior just destroys the proven benefits of massive construction that is not possible with lightweight, temporary insulation.

Unfortunately, the recent 100 years or so of construction in the U.S. has really been a joke and that it is why it is a rarity in the developed world.

The Habitat For Humanity concept has been a bad experience when the U.S, system of wood and pink fluff was attempted to to exported to other countries since the home were not effective and though of as temporary housing. The project in Hungary where many well-meaning volunteers went over and tried to build homes in a country with a history of permanent, substantial and energy efficient housing. The people did not like the noise and feel of the flimsy wood floors with noise, vibration and deflection. This was all driven by the major contributors to Habitat and the opportunity to give some volunteers a good exposure and feeling for their efforts plus being exposed to a new high-tech country. Sybil Carter did not listen since our company did not contribute enough even though we knew more about the local needs and requirements.

The scrap lumber was shredded and mixed with some sand and cement to make floor block that were used on a concrete beam floor system in new quality homes that were superior and had many comfort, thermal and durability advantages.

The other Schu (not the guy in the avatar). - AKA Dick

Hurriken · 10-31-2009, 03:41 PM

I love this thread. I married a German and we are living in a Pink Panther house! She is from Schweinfurt, not to far from Graf. I spent some time there, "Area Mud" we called it. My father in laws house is similar. It could take a shell hit! His stable was built in 1879 and has stayed solid.

One thing I wanted to mention is "the kellar". Are you building one in? Because of the cooling factors that Dick mentioned it becomes the perfect environment to store potatoes, veggies, canned goods and...Bier! My FIL won't drink beer that is colder than "Kellar Kuhl"!

shumakerscott · 11-01-2009, 01:42 AM

This is about different things. No house work yesterday, Sat, because I had to work and just was pooped when I got off. As for heating this place let's just wait and see. "The Proof wil be in the Pudding" I will keep track and post. Big Catholic holiday today All Saints. I'm planning on quiet work. As for Graf being "Area Mud" the tank trails are all paved now. My yard is going to be "Area Mud and Rock" Rain is predicted for all next week. My previous post for Seugast help has resulted in an email with an offer of a beam. It took less than 12 hours! The power of the net. He only lives 1 block away!

. More pics on this story I hope. "Edit, I also posted on seugast.de looking for beams. My reply came from that post not from this one" Time to get ready and go work on the house, Winter is coming and I have a lot of loose ends to tighten up. dorf dude...

shumakerscott · 11-01-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurriken

I love this thread. I married a German and we are living in a Pink Panther house! She is from Schweinfurt, not to far from Graf. I spent some time there, "Area Mud" we called it. My father in laws house is similar. It could take a shell hit! His stable was built in 1879 and has stayed solid.

One thing I wanted to mention is "the kellar". Are you building one in? Because of the cooling factors that Dick mentioned it becomes the perfect environment to store potatoes, veggies, canned goods and...Bier! My FIL won't drink beer that is colder than "Kellar Kuhl"!

No kellar in the house. We have a pretty high ground water table. I might build one behind the shop but digging in this ground with all the rocks is not fun. A backhoe is a must. Thanks for following, dorf dude...

shumakerscott · 11-07-2009, 12:21 PM

I've been busy at work and the weather has sucked. Not much done this week. I have set most of my drain pipes in the bathroom and back filled with sand. Plumbing is not my forte. I have to pick up a couple more fittings to finish up the toilet connection. Here are a couple pics, dorf dude...

Shamus · 11-07-2009, 02:38 PM

DD,

Can't tell from your photo but just wanted to suggest you keep the waste line for the toilet far enough from the wall. A good rule of thumb is 18" or more. This of course depends of what base & tank size your using.

Just a thought.

shumakerscott · 11-07-2009, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamus

DD,

Can't tell from your photo but just wanted to suggest you keep the waste line for the toilet far enough from the wall. A good rule of thumb is 18" or more. This of course depends of what base & tank size your using.

Just a thought.

What difference would 18" make with my main turd line from the wall? I don't get it. Please explain. Thanks dorf dude...