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Old 11-26-2011, 07:09 AM   #16
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Car "stumbles"


Could be choke.

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Old 11-29-2011, 06:41 PM   #17
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Next time, pull the vacuum from the EGR solenoid and plug it, then see if it makes a difference. A leaky solenoid will do the same thing.
Thnaks, Mart, but I dont believe my TBI Sunbird has a solrnoid......
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:42 PM   #18
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is there any chance that at some point in repairs, vacuum hoses could have been swapped? I once did that on a ford I used to own cause there were 3 vacuum lines real close and easy to swap by mistake. Check the vacuum diagram if there is one, of course on my stupid car I didn't have nor could find one on the web and had to look at a junkyard car and make my own.
Doubt it- Im the original owner, and have been meticulous about that stuff. But, hey, it was an idea/though.
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:46 PM   #19
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Car "stumbles"


After driving it now for about a week since I put in that new pcv, runs much better. Im convinced that was needed badly.

Still, the EGR bugs me. People, I know youve been trying, but Im about to give up on this EGR. Im kinda used to now, after about 9 yrs, driving with the egr off, and while its a doggone mystery to me, I may have to accept it. Gotta be thankful- heck, who has an 87 GT non turbo still as a daily driver WITH working ac and original clutch?????? LOL
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:01 PM   #20
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Car "stumbles"


you might be able to scout the junk yards for an EGR price ranges from like $10 to $30.
Or $55 at autozone. That is assuming you have a non-turbo
If it is electronic, you might be able to take it apart enough to clean the passages and make sure the solenoids are not hanging up.

If you get a vacuum one at a junkyard, they are easy to test - put a section of hose on the thing and just suck air and see if the plunger moves like it should. You should be able to draw air thru it but that should stop real quick once the plunger bottoms out. The only things that can go wrong with a vacuum EGR itself are the diaphragm ripping or the plunger sticking. IS there vacuum at the line for the EGR?

Also, you do know how to pull the codes on older cars yes? If the check engine light is on, I believe there is a plug under the dash and you turn off the car, put a jumper between two of the contacts, turn the key on but don't start the engine, you may hear the engine fan kick in, and the check engine light flashes... code 12 means the test is starting, code 55 means it is done...
all other codes you will have to look up. here is how it would look.
Say you had a code 44 (JUST for sake of demo here)
One flash for the "1", brief pause, two quick flashes for the "2", then a bit longer pause,
four quick flashes, brief pause, four quick flashes, a bit longer pause, 5 quick flashes, brief pause, 5 more quick flashes. that would mean it has the codes 12, 44, 55 stored. It will flash 12 and 55 even if no other codes are there.

Also, sometimes the codes can be misleading if something else is giving a bad reading to a sensor. Example, say a car had a blocked exhaust. Well, I know from experience that this will make the computer thing there is a problem with the TPS and the MAP sensors, even if there isn't.

So, kind of take the codes with a grain of salt but it can give a starting point. BTW I don't thing a vacuum EGR system that old will have a way of knowing if it is bad, unlike the electronic EGR.

All that aside, for now just concentrate on the EGR and making sure it is good, and don't forget a new gasket.

Last edited by AnErin; 11-29-2011 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 11-30-2011, 06:58 AM   #21
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Car "stumbles"


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnErin View Post
you might be able to scout the junk yards for an EGR price ranges from like $10 to $30.
Or $55 at autozone. That is assuming you have a non-turbo
If it is electronic, you might be able to take it apart enough to clean the passages and make sure the solenoids are not hanging up.

If you get a vacuum one at a junkyard, they are easy to test - put a section of hose on the thing and just suck air and see if the plunger moves like it should. You should be able to draw air thru it but that should stop real quick once the plunger bottoms out. The only things that can go wrong with a vacuum EGR itself are the diaphragm ripping or the plunger sticking. IS there vacuum at the line for the EGR?

Also, you do know how to pull the codes on older cars yes? If the check engine light is on, I believe there is a plug under the dash and you turn off the car, put a jumper between two of the contacts, turn the key on but don't start the engine, you may hear the engine fan kick in, and the check engine light flashes... code 12 means the test is starting, code 55 means it is done...
all other codes you will have to look up. here is how it would look.
Say you had a code 44 (JUST for sake of demo here)
One flash for the "1", brief pause, two quick flashes for the "2", then a bit longer pause,
four quick flashes, brief pause, four quick flashes, a bit longer pause, 5 quick flashes, brief pause, 5 more quick flashes. that would mean it has the codes 12, 44, 55 stored. It will flash 12 and 55 even if no other codes are there.

Also, sometimes the codes can be misleading if something else is giving a bad reading to a sensor. Example, say a car had a blocked exhaust. Well, I know from experience that this will make the computer thing there is a problem with the TPS and the MAP sensors, even if there isn't.

So, kind of take the codes with a grain of salt but it can give a starting point. BTW I don't thing a vacuum EGR system that old will have a way of knowing if it is bad, unlike the electronic EGR.

All that aside, for now just concentrate on the EGR and making sure it is good, and don't forget a new gasket.
EGR is brand new from AZ from years ago, of course. But, yes, maybe I should test it to be sure and rule it out. Its non electronic, so wouldnt set a code specificallly for it. Also, no codes as "check engine light" is not on. I know all about codes and the Diagnostic Connector under dash.

Now, I should follow up on your idea of making sure my vac line for the egr IS pulling a vac- I believe I did this yrs ago (cant remember everything) but can do again. Any idea of how much vac is should pull in inches of mercury?
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:24 AM   #22
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Car "stumbles"


Geez- AnErir was right! Just tested the egr vac line from the intake, and there is NO vacuum!! Zero! Man, now I gotta dig deeper to find out why- will ba removing the air cleaner, etc, and see if theres a plug somewhere . Could be that tiny black plastic/rubber vacuum line is rrotted/bad. Gimme an hour or so, guys..........
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:03 PM   #23
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OK, that was quick- I found out there is NO vacuum on the EGR port at the TBI itself! Also, no vac on the port at the TBI for the port that goes to the vapor canister! Geez, no wonder. But, there IS vacuum on the MAP sensor line/port. What could be causing that? I also inserted a piece of steel wire down the port serrated fitting/tip ruight under the tbi to "feel" if there was a plug/crud obstructing it but nothing- wire went in and out so easy, without any junk to push through.

Any ideas as to whats going on?

Thanks!
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:31 PM   #24
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Car "stumbles"


more info: regarding vapor canister ports- there are 2 it looks like- one narrower than the other. There is suction on the narrow port/line, but not the wider port/line. Shouldnt BOTH posts connected to the canister be sucking in from the canister and have vacuum?
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Old 12-06-2011, 02:45 PM   #25
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After 2 days of testing, EGR tests out OK with vacuum of 6" mercury at 2000 rpm (like manual says). So, if egr is OK, what else could be the culprit causing rough performance/idle? Well, the vapor canister tested out as a FAIL. Upon applying 15" Hg vac, and closed the tap, the vac dropped to zero within 3 seconds (manual says should hold to 20 seconds).

So, canister Vacuum diaphragm internally is shot. I dont care if some vapors go unburnt (cant be that much), but question: could a bad/shot canister cause rough idling/interfere with egr performance?

can I just detach the 2 tubes going to the canister from the 2 ports in back of the TBI? (kinda "tie" them together)?

Thanks!
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Old 12-06-2011, 06:45 PM   #26
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Car "stumbles"


Hook a vacuum gauge to direct manifold vacuum and check vacuum. Is the vacuum steady our does the needle bounce? If it bounces you could have burnt valves that would cause poor idle but run ok down the road.
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Old 12-06-2011, 07:12 PM   #27
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Thanks, CJM. I actually noticed that as I was doing the vacuum work at that time, and kinda pay attention to that stuff- so, yes, the vac guage showed about 20-22" Hg, but not say, bouncing around, but more like fluctuating (slowly undulating back/forth between the 20-22 marks, Id say every 2 seconds it would reach say, 22, then in 2 seconds it would arrive to 20, then repeat. I heard this is called a "hunting" idle.

Any ideas? Could burnt valves (the exhaust?) cause hunting? Just to note- I have pretty good compression, so could one have say 145psi with burnt valves??
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Old 12-06-2011, 08:29 PM   #28
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Slow fluctuation isn't always bad. Burnt valves should be fairly fast if bad enough to run bad. You can show normal cranking compression with burnt valves. Is that still distributor in 88? If it is how is the distributor shaft is it tight. At that age I have seen loose shafts cause rough idle. What is the state of the ignition system.
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:59 PM   #29
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CJ, big thanks for your continued support/advice.

Yes, has a distributor cap. OK, so lets rule out it has burnt valves as vac guage is definitely not "jittery". Dist cap is new, plus rotor. Now, car does have 180,000 miles on it, and yes, dist (shaft) is original. I did a head gasket on it in 2002 (112,000 miles), and didnt notice then a loose shaft. Also, valves looked acceptable. But, I did not reseat them with valve paste (if it matters). Still, if bad valve seat, shouldnt that show as bad compresion?

Rest if ignit system: new plugs about 6 months ago, wires- kinda new (lifetime). coil new. new ignit module too. Car starts every time. Dang- why cant I get a handle on this rough engine with EGR connected..........
If you and me cant figure this out, I may disconnect it again and run it without as I had been for years. Just was , with renewed hope, wanting to revisit this again, as it happens time to time when one want to challenge prioblems again.

thanks
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Old 12-07-2011, 03:03 PM   #30
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Oh, to be technical, shop manual , in the egr section testing, says: engine vac at 2000 rpm in the egr line should be less than 6" Hg. I got about 3". Guess that means its good/correct vacuum and good egr.........Oh well.

And why do they call it exhaust gas recirculation when it is mounted on the INTAKE, not exhaust manifold??????? How can the egr resuck exhaust from the intake if exhaust goes out the other side????????

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