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Old 11-10-2010, 08:56 PM   #46
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Abatements are EXTREMELY expensive, due to the incredibly overwhelming safety precautions needed to be taken. But there are many government programs available to help defer some of the cost.

But pulling off some trim to replace with new stuff is not necessarily considered an abatement. If it is a large amount, then yes it is an abatement and I would recommend talking with a professional about the work.

The main purpose of the new EPA guidelines are for the safety of a homeowner hiring a contractor to perform work on their home. When you hire a contractor to, for example, put in new windows in your house, removing the existing trim, stops, sashes, etc. and he doesn't take the proper precautions to contain any debris and dust during the project, there is a chance he could contaminate your home with lead. That is what the new guidelines are trying to eliminate.

If you are a homeowner and want to perform your own work on lead contaminated surfaces, I would suggest to at least take a lead certification course. To comply with the new EPA guidelines, I had to take another certification class and it only cost $300. I know $300 is still alot of cash, but its cheap insurance against harming yourself, or worse, a family member.

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Old 11-10-2010, 09:00 PM   #47
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P.S. sorry for turning an asbestos thread into another lead discussion, but I have seen too many people take the subject too lightly in the feild. A contractor I used to work for actually put a kids health in serious jeopardy during an abatement by not following the rules and made me an unwitting accomplice during the job, so I am very passionate about this subject.
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Old 11-11-2010, 04:38 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by eisert
P.S. sorry for turning an asbestos thread into another lead discussion, but I have seen too many people take the subject too lightly in the feild. A contractor I used to work for actually put a kids health in serious jeopardy during an abatement by not following the rules and made me an unwitting accomplice during the job, so I am very passionate about this subject.
Abatement are so exspenve and it is most likely whay people don't do it as much as they should. That is why abatemwnt should be subsidised by the gov and paint companies. I admire your passion.
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Old 11-11-2010, 01:58 PM   #49
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A lot of conditions have symptoms of fuzziness and loss of balance. He was doing a home project, maybe he had a couple of beers; maybe the room was very hot; maybe he overworked himself; maybe another environmental pollutant was present. Lead is a chronic condition often with no symptoms until lead levels are very high. The guy had just taken a class in lead abatement and was focused on the danger of lead poisoning. Of course, ANYTHING he experienced would have been attributed to lead. There isn't even any mention of lead being positively identified in the room or in the house.
I think the last I've had any beer was June, weeks before we had even considered buying this house. Weather was hot and I had kept the windows closed, no AC in the house but I'd have had it off anyway to keep the contamination contained... But symptoms persisted into the next day when I went to work and began lessenning in subsequent days.

On a house built in 1917 where lath & plaster had been covered with fiberboard, the probability of lead paint still being present would be pretty high. Once I had exposed the painted plaster, the test kit turned pink when applied to the paint. It was actually the first place I got a color change.

From the standpoint of being trained in certified renovator, the fact that the house had been built prior to 1978 is all that is necessary to treat it as if it has lead-based paint. From the instruction materials, if I recall, a house built prior to 1950 is 95% likely to contain lead-based paint.

In the class, you learn about various activities and how much dust they put into the air... unprotected, sanding lead based paint without a vacuum attachment would probably noticeably affect you in 30 minutes...

Lead poisoning works by inhibiting the oxygen delivery of your blood, so a high level of exposure would directly affect your blood. Long-term exposure at a lower would affect you differently by building up in your bones or other systems (kidneys or liver or whatever)
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:07 PM   #50
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Well he is not a doctor is he?. Leave the doctoring to the doctors. He is probaly a contractor that just took the lead coarse required by goverments. Another fear industry cread by industry to support industry. Paint companies should be paying for these cleanups just like the asbestos companies. Talking about elsert
Well, I think that's going a bit far... We'd be talking about fining them for something that was common practice over 60 years ago. The paint companies started reducing lead levels on their own starting 1950 before any regulatory action was taken.

Also... see this is a problem that gets taken too far. Yes it's serious, but the problem is that when it gets taken so far that dealing with it becomes impractical, the solution defeats the purpose. Take for example Detroit - out of concern for lead-based paint, Detroit passed an ordinance requiring lead inspection to be passed on an annual basis for houses being rented. Think about that - Now a landlord has to pay for a service costing thousands every year, and say it's $2000, divided over 12 months that's 170 that needs to get added on every month.. If the house has lead it's not going to magically disappear, and if it doesn't lead isn't going to suddenly appear next year. And do you think the average renter in Detroit can afford another $170 per month?
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:24 PM   #51
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An entire house abatement is one thing , yeah not a diy, but pulling off trimm on a window is anothers thing. But according to the new laws need you need to take lead precautions for a simple job. Sometimes goverment goes a little to far. Are abatements exspensive?
Like eisert said, taking the certified renovator course is a good idea, but you can certainly find some of the info without the class.

The above statement seems to have some misconceptions that you learn about in the class.

First, removing some trim may not be enough area disturbed to require the procedures you learn in the class. The EPA rules define limits on how much area disturbed and how much length of trim can be disturbed without having to follow the rules about containment, cleanup and so on.

Second, a homeowner working on their own home is not bound by the rules. A homeowner working on a home he's renting out is, as is anyone working on someone else's property.

Third, certified renovator class does not cover abatement. Honestly I don't think I could do the EPA definition of abatement justice but abatement is activity that is intended to eliminate a lead hazard. The key is the intent of the activity. Encapsulating is abatement. Demolishing an entire ceiling and room full of walls because I need to work on the framing and insulation is not abatement.

You have to remember, the laws of nature don't necessarily apply in court. Whether something is abatement, to you and me living in the real world, seems like it should have something to do with whether lead paint goes bye-bye and how much dust you create. But in the regulatory arena of the EPA, what is and isn't abatement has to do with the purpose of the project. My demolition isn't abatement because I need to take out the lath and plaster to add framing, add rafter baffles and remove old insulation - the lead-based paint just happens to be in the way.

And lead-free paint isn't really lead free. There is still lead in paint. It is called lead-free because the EPA defines lead-free as having less than a maximum allowable level of paint... The crazy thing is that this is based on surface area or by weight. So by the surface area definition, enough layers might end up counting as lead-based paint if an abatement professional inspected it.

Abatement is a world more expensive because it involves testing with an x-ray gun that costs $15,000+ and needs regular calibration or requires specific procedures for gathering samples tested in an independent laboratory.

BTW, my certified renovator class which I took in Detroit was $100.
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:36 PM   #52
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I believe if you disturb over 6 sq ft of painted surface you fall under this law, at least that's what the EPA said.
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:55 PM   #53
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I believe if you disturb over 6 sq ft of painted surface you fall under this law, at least that's what the EPA said.
Per person
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Old 11-12-2010, 07:51 AM   #54
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Per person
That is not correct, there is no per-person on the 6 square feet limit. It is 6 square feet per room for interior work and 20 square feet for interior work. (and it doesn't mean if you're working on 2 rooms and have 8 square feet in one room and 2 square feet in the other that you're exempt, in the room where it's 8 square feet the rule applies, I think you'd be exempt in the room with 2 square feet but the work practices in the 8 square feet room would pretty much mean you'd have to seal it off from the 2 square feet room and you probably wouldn't be doing them both simultaneously)

From an FAQ of a web site of a company that does the certified renovator training, here is there answer as to what exemptions to the rule are allowed:
http://www.healthyhomestraining.org/..._Rule_FAQs.htm
Quote:
Are there exceptions to the requirements?

The following exemptions to the rule apply:

Abatement: Activities conducted under abatement rules by certified abatement contractor.

Minor Repair or Maintenance Activities: Activities that will, within a 30-day period, disturb less
than 6 square feet per room for interior activities; or 20 square feet for exterior activities.Exemption
does NOT apply to window replacement; demolition; or use of banned practices.

No Lead-Based Paint Will be Disturbed: as determined by:
o Testing of paint by certified lead inspector or risk assessor; or
o Proper use of EPA-recognized test kit by certified renovator.

Do-It-Yourself: Work performed by an owner an owner-occupied residence.
There are also further requirements that apply to HUD housing, One that is a little harder to understand is that beyond the 6 square foot area requirement, HUD work requires following lead-safe work practices when you disturb more than 10% of the area of a component with a small surface area.

This is the part I would not be able to precisely explain because I don't have HUD housing, I only plan to work on my own house so it didn't apply to me, but it was discussed in the class I took and I paid some attention because it could have been on the test at the end.

An example would be if you were in a room with chair rail molding, let's say for simplicity it has 10 feet of chair rail molding. If you disturb more than 1 foot of that, the lead-safe work rules apply. If you have 10 feet of chair rail and 10 feet of base molding you could disturb 1 foot of chair rail and 1 foot of base molding and not have the rule apply because they are seperate components, but not more than 1 foot of either. And I think that if the 10 feet of chair rail molding was in 2 pieces, it still counts as 1 component...

Really, though, is there that much you can do where you're disturbing any piece of molding where it's going to be in that gray area? Either you're just cutting out a small piece to add an outlet and it's well under 10% or you're going to be doing something to the whole piece and it's well over 10%.

Last edited by WillK; 11-12-2010 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 11-12-2010, 10:21 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by WillK

That is not correct, there is no per-person on the 6 square feet limit. It is 6 square feet per room for interior work and 20 square feet for interior work. (and it doesn't mean if you're working on 2 rooms and have 8 square feet in one room and 2 square feet in the other that you're exempt, in the room where it's 8 square feet the rule applies, I think you'd be exempt in the room with 2 square feet but the work practices in the 8 square feet room would pretty much mean you'd have to seal it off from the 2 square feet room and you probably wouldn't be doing them both simultaneously)

From an FAQ of a web site of a company that does the certified renovator training, here is there answer as to what exemptions to the rule are allowed:
http://www.healthyhomestraining.org/..._Rule_FAQs.htm

There are also further requirements that apply to HUD housing, One that is a little harder to understand is that beyond the 6 square foot area requirement, HUD work requires following lead-safe work practices when you disturb more than 10% of the area of a component with a small surface area.

This is the part I would not be able to precisely explain because I don't have HUD housing, I only plan to work on my own house so it didn't apply to me, but it was discussed in the class I took and I paid some attention because it could have been on the test at the end.

An example would be if you were in a room with chair rail molding, let's say for simplicity it has 10 feet of chair rail molding. If you disturb more than 1 foot of that, the lead-safe work rules apply. If you have 10 feet of chair rail and 10 feet of base molding you could disturb 1 foot of chair rail and 1 foot of base molding and not have the rule apply because they are seperate components, but not more than 1 foot of either. And I think that if the 10 feet of chair rail molding was in 2 pieces, it still counts as 1 component...

Really, though, is there that much you can do where you're disturbing any piece of molding where it's going to be in that gray area? Either you're just cutting out a small piece to add an outlet and it's well under 10% or you're going to be doing something to the whole piece and it's well over 10%.
Thanks for factual correction, one quick question is that per day per hour?

Never mind saw the 30 day time limit

Last edited by ianc435; 11-12-2010 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:57 PM   #56
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I'm noticing a lack of concern about asbestos on here. Is it because asbestos-related illness is mainly an invention of ambulance chasers trying to business for themselves or is out of ignorance?
Both of my grandfather's spent a few years in their 20s lining ships with asbestos... both died of mesothelioma in their mid-70s...

Some may say that it was the levels and length of time they were exposed... others may point out that it took five decades to be an issue for them...

...then again, it costs $20-30 to get a sample tested... even if you tested 10 different surfaces in your home that's $200-300. Now you know to take precautions working with those surfaces, or even to hire an abatement company...

So is the money today worth possibly 10+ years of your life? Not to even mention the suffering associated with the condition which is pretty bad from what I vividly remember.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:31 PM   #57
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hi i find a crack within the wall i have a picture this is the pic copy and paste it i wasn't quite sure if it is asbestos my house was built in 1920s or 1930s when i have a look on the house documented it says Kitchen/Breakfast Room (16' 5''plus 2' 9" recess x 9' 5'' narrowing to 8' 6" (5m x 2.87m))
Refitted with a range of wall and base level units with roll-edged worksurfaces to include stainless steel sink unit and drainer with mixer tap, tiled splashbacks, space and plumbing for washing machine and dishwasher, space for gas cooker, space for fridge/freezer, wall
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:57 PM   #58
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hi i find a crack within the wall i have a picture this is the pic copy and paste it i wasn't quite sure if it is asbestos my house was built in 1920s or 1930s when i have a look on the house documented it says Kitchen/Breakfast Room (16' 5''plus 2' 9" recess x 9' 5'' narrowing to 8' 6" (5m x 2.87m))
Refitted with a range of wall and base level units with roll-edged worksurfaces to include stainless steel sink unit and drainer with mixer tap, tiled splashbacks, space and plumbing for washing machine and dishwasher, space for gas cooker, space for fridge/freezer, wall
Huh?........

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