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-   -   tales of woe suffering and the tribulations of smooth walls (http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/tales-woe-suffering-tribulations-smooth-walls-143008/)

drcristoff 05-07-2012 01:03 PM

tales of woe suffering and the tribulations of smooth walls
 
New to this forum and let me begin by saying that I have infinite respect for all the professionals out there that make this stuff appear easy when it is in fact quite quite difficult.

So I embarked on the most perilous journey of removing wallpaper from about 700 sq feet of my home with the intention of painting it. I was thinking originally, ok this might take a a few weeks working evenings and weekends and it will take work but won't be that difficult, right? Wrong. I write my chronicles and ask for guidance from anyone who has a solution easier than starting over again.

stage 1. Begin by scraping and removing all old wallpaper. Comes down not too horribly difficult, but numerous gouges and rough spots to repair. Did make good effort to scrub down walls after removal to get as much paste off as possible. I feel this step went as well as possible, doubt it has any bearing on my later problem.

stage 2. Had the bright idea to skimcoat all the walls with joint compound to get rid of the gouges and such and to even out some of the warping in the walls. *I should note that although my home is over 100 it does have actual sheetrock which a previous owner installed on top of the original plaster, so at least I am dealing with drywall and not plaster. The skim coat eventually, after many many mistakes and sanding skimming sanding skimming, cursing, skimming, sanding, eventually came out fairly smooth. People who can do this quickly are like another form of human, more evolved than myself. I feel this step eventually ended up fairly good even though it took forever to get done.

stage 3. priming. Here I feel like my big mistakes begin. I first selected a product called gardz from zinsser, it is billed as a water based sealer for new drywall. I rolled it on and it seemed ok as I was working, as it dried however I noticed that as it dries it shrinks. Since it has penetrated the joint compound this shrinking also shrinks the joint compound, which resulted in weird hills and valleys throughout. Ok, so with the project clocking in at around 5 weeks already I hired a guy to reskim the really bad areas, so we are back to relatively smooth finish. Now what to do, I've got to seal the joint compound because it will soak up paint like nobody's business. I decide to go with an oil based primer from kilz because that seems to be the standard for sealing new drywall. I apply it and notice a small amount of roller stipple as I go, I come to terms with it and feel a little bit of stipple wont be bad (after feeling like destroying the entire house because I really wanted a smooth finish, but we can't always get what we want). This may be where the problem lies, I am not sure if I should have thinned the primer, it was going on kind of thick and I've never worked with an oil based product before. I finish the priming completely and have what *appears* to be an even stipple throughout.

stage 3. Painting. Ok so I finally get to the point where we are top coating with latex paint (I chose ben moore's Aura line in eggshell). We rolled it on with foam rollers to get the smoothest finish we could, 2 coats throughout. Looks pretty good, its nighttime got the job finished, pretty happy. I wake up the next day and look down the hallway and what do I see, the worst possible sheen problems. Looking pretty much like a crazy patchwork of roller marks everywhere.

So here we have it, after all the hard work I seem to have really awful sheen issues, these are not visible head on, but at an angle it is really very visible. I feel pretty frustrated because I think I used the best practices (good quality paint, used a primer first) but it still ended up looking awful. I *think* what happened is that the primer was going on more unevenly than I thought (tough to see, white on white) because when I look closely I can see that these marks are underneath and don't correspond to where the top coat of paint was rolled. Another possible problem is that I rolled the primer in vertical strokes, then rolled the top 2 coats of finish paint vertically, possibly just building it up. I should say though that I am unusually careful in my practices, always doing my best to keep a wet edge, backrolling when necessary and feathering the paint out anytime I finish a rolling stroke so I don't have a huge lap mark. I did use foam rollers on both the primer coat and the two finish coats and I'm beginning to suspect the primer would have been better served with a tighter nap regular roller.

Anyway, the only bright idea I've got is to try another top coat going horizontally with the roller instead of vertical. The other thing I can think of is to completely prime again going the other direction and start all over with the topcoat (this will not happen since I simply don't have the will to do it at this point). If anyone has any tricks or can perform miracles (walking on water would be easier than this stuff), I would love to hear suggestions.

Brushjockey 05-07-2012 01:54 PM

Well that is quite a story!

My first comment was that the Gardz was a great product- one i would have chosen at that stage. But for that and all coats, I think you have a bit of application error to consider.
First- Never use a foam roller. They are extremely hard to get a good finish from. I get the feeling you are trying to get a very smooth finish- pretty hard for a DIY- but not impossible.
Most of us pros prefer a 1/2 nap quality roller. Holds enough paint to do about 1-1 1/2 roller width on every load- And always have it on an extension pole so that you can easily make a full stroke top to bottom.
The secret is in putting up a width or two- and "laying off" the one you just finished. Smooth and even.
I'll try and find a good instructional vid on how to..
Sounds like you had the frame in your hand for every step- can't move quick enough or smooth enough for an even finish. And this will show.

Oil is actually a poor choice for raw sheetrock- fair for skimmed. It will raise the grain of the rock paper, and that will need to be "vigorously" sanded to get smooth again.

I think now you should pole or with a hand sander try and smooth the walls out, dust down ( a swiffer on a pole works pretty well) and put a full coat with proper technique of your Aura on.
... BTW- what sheen of Aura are you using?

I'm sure others will be chiming in...

Evstarr 05-07-2012 02:00 PM

I don't have any suggestions for you but I wanted to tell you I appreciate the effort that went into both the project AND the post!

Good luck!

Windows 05-07-2012 02:35 PM

THat is an impressive job you undertook. Removing wall paper is a thankless, soul-destroying job. Good on you for completing. You are pretty close in your procedure and technique, just a few technical errors and a different ordering and you would have been fine.

After scraping the walls of paste, and before applying drywall mud: that is the time to prime with oil.

After skim coating and doing most of your drywall repairs, and before doing your final touch-up mud: that is the time to prime with latex drywall primer. Imperfections always hide in the skim coat and they remain invisible until you prime. Then you spot prime (or re-prime) the touchups.

As BruJo pointed out, foam rollers have very limited circumstances in which they are useful - I have never even heard of someone trying to paint a wall with them. I bet your sheen issues are directly caused by the foam rollers putting insufficient and uneven paint on the walls, both in the prime and finish coats. But it is a pretty easy fix.

As suggested, pole sand the walls and apply a heavier finish coat using a thicker napped roller. Let that dry and give it another more thorough pole sanding with 180 paper, then apply your second finish coat using a thinner napped roller (but not a foam roller).

Good luck.

joecaption 05-07-2012 04:09 PM

I did not see where you mentioned what color your trying to paint also.
A dark color should have a tinted primer before the paint.
Anytime your painting over primer it's going to take two coats of finish paint to get it all even.

mobiledynamics 05-07-2012 04:14 PM

I also find it helpful to use the halogens when painting, similar to when doing the final sand coat. The light of ~truth~ helps immensley IMO

chrisn 05-07-2012 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windows (Post 916562)
THat is an impressive job you undertook. Removing wall paper is a thankless, soul-destroying job. Good on you for completing. You are pretty close in your procedure and technique, just a few technical errors and a different ordering and you would have been fine.

After scraping the walls of paste, and before applying drywall mud: that is the time to prime with oil.

After skim coating and doing most of your drywall repairs, and before doing your final touch-up mud: that is the time to prime with latex drywall primer. Imperfections always hide in the skim coat and they remain invisible until you prime. Then you spot prime (or re-prime) the touchups.

As BruJo pointed out, foam rollers have very limited circumstances in which they are useful - I have never even heard of someone trying to paint a wall with them. I bet your sheen issues are directly caused by the foam rollers putting insufficient and uneven paint on the walls, both in the prime and finish coats. But it is a pretty easy fix.

As suggested, pole sand the walls and apply a heavier finish coat using a thicker napped roller. Let that dry and give it another more thorough pole sanding with 180 paper, then apply your second finish coat using a thinner napped roller (but not a foam roller).

Good luck.


So true:yes:

drcristoff 05-07-2012 05:56 PM

thanks for the replies
 
Thanks for the info guys. You kind of confirmed what I suspected, its gonna take some sanding to get rid of the issue (bad news for your average homeowner). Sanding makes such a mess / time consuming, I think I'm gonna have to live with the sheen for a bit. After 4 months of messing with this I don't have the will to take myself back to square one. If it really bothers me I'll get back into it someday. The crucial error was in the oil based primer, and using those foam rollers, made it pretty much impossible to apply it evenly. Wish I had noticed the application problems when it was going on, its pretty much like a magic trick reveal when you put that top coat on, every tiny little mistake shows up like spotlight.

Oh, the color that is going on is ben moore's hale navy (dark blue), but also concrete grey which is pretty light. Both show the problem equally bad so it doesn't seem much related to the color itself. Love the colors, but wish they didn't look like a patchwork quilt from a sideview.

ltd 05-07-2012 05:58 PM

imho i soft stipple with a 3/8 to a 1/2 roller cover , is a good thing:). i think it hides imperfections and looks richer:yes: . i like the purdy white dove covers .first thing, pitch the foam rollers . second thing, follow brush jockeys advice

mobiledynamics 05-07-2012 06:00 PM

FWIW, have had great sucess on Aura with either the BM Aura specific roller or SuperDooz...

Brushjockey 05-07-2012 06:12 PM

As BruJo pointed out

BruJo... I kind of like it! :thumbup:

ltd 05-07-2012 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd (Post 916677)
imo i soft stipple with a 3/8 to a 1/2 roller cover , is a good thing:). i think it hides imperfections and looks richer:yes: . i like the purdy white dove covers .first thing, pitch the foam rollers . second thing, follow brush jockeys advice

you know what? disregard my cover recommendation and go with ben moore recomention. or what the other b/m guys use

Brushjockey 05-07-2012 06:51 PM

couple rolling tips:

http://www.jackpauhl.com/how-to-rolling-load-distribution/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqGHMRZhvR4&feature=relmfu

drcristoff 05-08-2012 10:13 AM

Thanks for the solutions
 
Thanks for the advice guys, sounds like the most important thing to do is ditch those foam rollers, they lured me with their promises of a smooth finish. Maybe I'll wait till the wife is out of town and give the walls a quick sanding (she might just murder me if she found out, given the mess I've already made in our house). I think you guys have given me a solid plan though, just gotta find the right time to do it on the sly. :shifty:


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