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Old 10-12-2008, 02:01 PM   #16
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


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Originally Posted by slickshift View Post
He's new
...or at least "just a salesperson"
To those that have been in the repaint biz for a while, the words "Kilz2" and what you describe, are (unfortunately) common
Hi Slick,
I'm pretty certain that he's been with this store forever... or at least as long as I have been in town (close to 20 years). He seems to take his business quite seriously. The sample "sheet" I showed him was probably 18" X 12". Most people who have seen how the walls are peeling are astonished and dumbfounded. He was very busy at the time though. Maybe that is why he chose to handle the problem later and call me with his opinion.
DorothyOlive

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Old 10-12-2008, 03:31 PM   #17
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


This sometimes happens on regular drywall compound also.

There may be excessive dust or the material pulls the moisture out so quickly that the paint/primer lays on top, not adhering to the material.

A few options to try: Wet a section of the wall and then immediatly prime that area. Let it dry and see how well it sticks. Use a thin coat.

You could just thin the primer or use a primer that is already very thin. The idea is to saturate the plaster with moisture the first time around. I think regular pva primer thinned 10% is a good place to start. You can experiment with the kilz2, but I wouldn't trust it.

You could go to the local hardware store or call your plaster man to find out about a ph test kit. If you can't get any primer to stick to the plaster, then follow up on the alkalinity level.

You could just get an alkali resistant primer, your paint dealer should know about it.

I suggest starting with a damp wall and testing with water based primer.

Sounds like you are committed to this, so I'm thinking you should learn how to do it with water based products, rather than thinking you'll have to use oil at all times.


Paint takes time to cure. It dries quicklyl, but takes at least 30 days to cure. So, if you paint, wait a while before doing a scratch test.

Last edited by joewho; 10-12-2008 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 10-13-2008, 01:50 PM   #18
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


Sounds like a moisture problem.
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Old 10-18-2008, 02:05 PM   #19
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


Hi Folks, Sounds like joewho and bubbagump might be on to something with the moisture. I'll give the damp wall/thin water based primer test a try.(thanks but no thanks to the suggestion to retry the Kilz2) I was just on my way out and decided to log on to recheck the type of oil based primer that was suggested above but if I can avoid the fumes I'll try other options. I feel a bit overwhelmed at this point. You know when you are on a mission and something like this impedes your progress it's difficult to find the oomph to continue. Everything looked SO good not a month or so ago... who knows WHAT LIES BENEATH dm,dm, dm, dm... the SAGA continues
Bubbagump, may I have shrimp with that? .
I'll let you all know if I make any progress. If any of my mistakes/tests/progress help prevent someone else from dealing with the same thing, I suppose it will be worth it.
Thanks for all the help!!
DorothyOlive
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Old 10-25-2008, 07:51 AM   #20
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


Quote:
Originally Posted by slickshift View Post
He's new
...or at least "just a salesperson"
To those that have been in the repaint biz for a while, the words "Kilz2" and what you describe, are (unfortunately) common
Hi Slickshift, I asked him how long he's been in the business. He smiled and said "53 years, but I rather like being called 'new'. " He actually showed the "sample" to many other professionals and they all reacted the same way. He recommended I try a product called STIX manufactured by Insl-x Products Corp. It's a Waterborne Bonding Primer - urethane Acrylic.
I'm going to try it out today on an area that I'm certain (through other testing) has given me much difficulty with adhesion.
I'll post the results :O). I really hope THIS works. He agrees with the "bad batch of plaster" theory and said if this product doesn't work then I should check the batch/lot # of the plaster. I still have some bags left that I can get those #s from. He said to look it up to see if there have been other cases like mine.
DorothyOlive
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Old 10-25-2008, 01:10 PM   #21
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


Ugg, well good luck with that, but there have countless stories on the net about latex paint no sticking to new plaster.
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Old 10-25-2008, 06:10 PM   #22
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


The Sherwin Williams Prep Rite Pro Block primer earlier gave you the wrong product for new plaster. You need the Loxon Masonry Primer or just the regular Prep Right Masonry primer. These primers will even out the PH level to a good point for the topcoat to bond to. The Pro Block is a great product just not the one to use in this case. BTW we sell boat loads of the masonry primer to new construction painters who paint over 1 week old plaster with no ill effects. Not the ideal situation but it works.
Chuck
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:36 PM   #23
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


Hi Chazbe (Chuck),
Right now I have the STIX on one test area and BM Aura on one and thinned primer on another. I haven't applied a coat of paint yet due to the moisture in the air (it's raining outside). I don't want to jeopardize the test in any way. I applied it on Saturday and wanted to apply the paint today (Monday) but... ! If these tests fail and I find that the plaster batch is okay, I haven't checked that yet, then I'll test all these suggestions until I find a solution before I go ahead and redo ALL of my walls.
Thank you for your suggestion, it is very much appreciated.
DorothyOlive
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Old 11-02-2008, 11:11 AM   #24
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


Rather than start a new thread I'll ask here first.

When you guys are talking plaster, are you talking veneer (skim coat) plaster? I just had my new room wall done as veneer plaster and was told I could paint after 4-5 days. The posts in this thread saying I should wait 30 days or more are scaring the hell out of me.

BTW, I just bought Behr new drywall primer and sealer for this project. I've had good luck with Behr but am I going to regret this?
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:51 PM   #25
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


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Originally Posted by RolandOG View Post
Rather than start a new thread I'll ask here first.

When you guys are talking plaster, are you talking veneer (skim coat) plaster? I just had my new room wall done as veneer plaster and was told I could paint after 4-5 days. The posts in this thread saying I should wait 30 days or more are scaring the hell out of me.

BTW, I just bought Behr new drywall primer and sealer for this project. I've had good luck with Behr but am I going to regret this?
Well you won't find many pro painters in here that will recommed you put anything Behr on any surface. I have used both thier interior and exterior and liked neither. The interior stuff sagged, and by sagged I mean it would actually almost run where the the bottom roll marks met the cut in. It was not just a one time thing in one spot that I cold attribute to being put on too thick. I had to babysit the whole room for over an hour constantly going back over the spots where it was sagging. This was a fresly shaken can of a custom color so I couldn't blame it on the can sitting forever on a shelf. The covereage was moderate but no where near what a quality paint would have been from Benjamin Moore or Sherwin Williams. The exterior paint I used met will equal dissapointment. I was basicly full priming the areas with white oil based primer since I was scraping a lot of the old paint of to begin with and the Behr just didn't cover. Even the spots I gave 2 coats was streaky. Both the interior and the exterior paints were the Premium Plus.

I would HIGHLY recommend you get a better primer for a first coat on fresh plaster. As far as curing times and what you can use for a primer, that really all depends on the type of plaster being used.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:30 PM   #26
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


The bag said, I believe, USG Diamond Veneer Finish. That's all I know about what was used.

I understand Behr isn't what the pros use, but as I said, I've had good results with it. If I stuck with Behr for the color, but switched primers, what would you recommend?
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Old 11-02-2008, 03:08 PM   #27
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


I just checked my bags of plaster and mine is the same as yours. Diamond Finish plaster is highly alkaline w/ a pH of 13+. I have learned that PVA based primers SHOULD NOT be used over plaster of any kind. PVA tends to combine w/ or dissolve in water and thus is highly susceptible to swelling when wetted and shrinking when re-dried. Use an alkali resistant primers and paints only. Use only high quality acrylic latex, high-grade vinyl acrylic latex or alkyd paint. Avoid paint dilution which ofter results in sheen variation. Use alkali resistant epoxy-based finish systems over lime containing finish plasters. Be certain, if you sand any areas prior to primer application, that all dust is removed with a damp cloth. Any dust will cause adhesion problems. Apply with a roller. If you spray-apply be certain to back-roll to work the coating into the substrate or underlying coat. If there is moisture in the air allow for extra drying time. I'll get back to you about the appropriate drying time of the plaster and how to tell if it is definitely dry. Don't rush things. You may end up with all sorts of trouble. As for the Behr (sorry about the spelling?) Personally, I detested it in every way. It was difficult to apply and the finish sheen has variations. If you can return it, do so and go to a "paint" store for your paint. It's worth the extra money for good quality paint.
DorothyOlive

Last edited by dorothyolive; 11-02-2008 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 11-02-2008, 04:08 PM   #28
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


Quote:
Originally Posted by RolandOG View Post
Rather than start a new thread I'll ask here first.

When you guys are talking plaster, are you talking veneer (skim coat) plaster? I just had my new room wall done as veneer plaster and was told I could paint after 4-5 days. The posts in this thread saying I should wait 30 days or more are scaring the hell out of me.

BTW, I just bought Behr new drywall primer and sealer for this project. I've had good luck with Behr but am I going to regret this?
Hi,
Ideal drying conditions for this plaster are 77 degrees F and 50% humidity. If the plaster is not dry completely the paint bonding process will be greatly reduced. You can test to see if the plaster is fully dried by taping a one square foot sheet of clear polyethylene plastic film to the wall. Wait 24 hours. If the plaster is still wet you'll see beads or droplets on the underside of the film. Generally, under the "ideal" drying conditions this plaster will dry in 24 hours. You'll need to apply 1 coat of alkali-resistant primer/sealer followed by 2 separate coats of topcoat. Avoid applying the paint too thickly and let it dry thoroughly in between coats.
Good luck and remember to eliminate any dust with a damp cloth before priming.
DorothyOlive
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Old 11-02-2008, 05:46 PM   #29
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


Quote:
Originally Posted by RolandOG View Post

BTW, I just bought Behr new drywall primer and sealer for this project. I've had good luck with Behr but am I going to regret this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dorothyolive View Post
I have learned that PVA based primers SHOULD NOT be used over plaster of any kind.
The Behr product is a PVA type primer
The regret factor is high on this one
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Old 11-02-2008, 06:14 PM   #30
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Spray primer Kilz latex now all finish paint is soft and easily peelable


Thanks for the additional info, and I hope you don't mind me posting in your thread. I figured with related questions it made more sense than starting a new thread.

Anyway, I just got back from my local Sherwin Williams store and the Behr paint will be going back to HD. The guy there suggests using SW PrepRite Masonry Primer unless I'm willing to wait for 30 days to use a latex one. At the moment I plan on waiting a minimum of 2 weeks. If it's dry then I'll use the masonry primer. Does this seem like the right approach? Was the guy right about the masonry primer?

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