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Old 02-26-2012, 05:54 AM   #1
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Solid color deck


Hi,

I stained my deck last fall with a Behr solid color stain (redwood color). Now it looks way too red! I want to change the color. Is it ok to apply a new solid color stain directly over the previous stain? Or, do I have to strip first? Hoping to avoid that.

Any advice is appreciated!!

Thanks

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Old 02-26-2012, 07:03 AM   #2
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Hey marsh, welcome to the forum. When you say last fall, do you mean as in four-five months ago? Or, did you go over a summer with it? I ask because sun exposure fades certain components of color forumlas differently. I painted a steel door once in a deep, almost navy blue. It gets a lot of direct, intense late afternoon sun. It fades over time to a purple/plum color. It's that color now. But that takes a few years, not a summer.
To answer your question, yes. Over a solid acylic stain you can recoat without stripping the finish. That is of course, if the current coat is just discoloring and failing. Is the coating in otherwise good shape?
I would make two suggestions, change your color and go to Ben Moore, Sherwin Williams, or another major brand and talk to them about solid stains.

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Old 02-26-2012, 07:42 AM   #3
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Thanks for the reply J.

The current finish is in good shape. I think I'll just re-coat with a more subtle color when the weather warms up a bit.

It was stained in October. I don't want to go through the whole summer with the current color.

We'll try Benjamin Moore.

Thanks again!
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:47 AM   #4
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You had better strip the coating off before recoating with a different product. They will not be compatable and you will be calling a power washer in to strip off both coats. Strip with HD80 followed with a brightener to neutralize the stripper.
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Old 02-26-2012, 09:22 AM   #5
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Capt., what specifically would make one acrylic solid stain incompatible with another acylic solid stain? Why doesn't that apply to paints as well? Stripping a deck of acyrlic solid stain with HD80 is not something the typical DIY can pull off. How can you justify that much effort? You'll be teaching me something as well.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:26 AM   #6
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Behr not necessarily acrylic. Have you ever dealt with Behr on decks? I have been doing decks for 20 yrs now and do about 250 per year and most difficult problem is when customers decide to do their own decks and do not clean them properly of previous coatings.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:37 AM   #7
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I have given many deck restoration proposals where Bear was applied to a deck and has failed within a year. I wouldn't do a deck that had Bear stain on it previously unless I stripped it completely first. The Bear will fail causing the new stain to fail. A big problem is in experience and lack of cleaning decks prior to applying stain.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by housepaintingny View Post
I have given many deck restoration proposals where Bear was applied to a deck and has failed within a year. I wouldn't do a deck that had Bear stain on it previously unless I stripped it completely first. The Bear will fail causing the new stain to fail. A big problem is in experience and lack of cleaning decks prior to applying stain.
I agree. Behr is just a problem waiting to happen. It will peel eventually so it would be best to remove it know before applying a different stain on top.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:52 PM   #9
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BEHR deck stains are even worse than the paints! Evil. Pure evil. But people buy the stuff.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by housepaintingny View Post
I have given many deck restoration proposals where Bear was applied to a deck and has failed within a year. I wouldn't do a deck that had Bear stain on it previously unless I stripped it completely first. The Bear will fail causing the new stain to fail. A big problem is in experience and lack of cleaning decks prior to applying stain.
I would attribute most all deck failures to inadequate prep, not the chosen material. I would also venture to say that with the proper prep/treatment, that a deck done with Behr would hold up as well as most other brands. I'm not defending Behr, but think about it. Behr is a large company, and making a solid deck stain that will last isn't reinventing the wheel. There is a basic forumula to a deck stain, where they differ is the tweaking around the edges, but the basics are the same. I'm certain that Behr has the resources to do the R&D, and the resources to employ top chemists to do it. Some say Behr is cheap. Is it really?
I pay around the same for some of the products I buy at the regulars. Look at the competitive advantage that Behr has over its competitors, a lot of which could explain price differences. Behr sells out of an already existing otherwise owned structure, so far less overhead with respect to bricks and mortar. Marketing costs are split between Behr and Home Depot, as people who buy Behr paint buy Home Depot paint supplies, as well as non-paint supplies. Behr paint is sold by HD employees, so Behr doesn't have the wage overhead of the regulars. HD buys Behr paint in bulk, and it sells Behr globally, as global pertains to HD's reach. All of these factors can significantly reduce the cost of a product sold through that distribution model.
Did you know that more people die of lung related disease in Arizona than other state in the country? The reason is not because Arizona has worse air, but because those with lung disease move there for the benefits of the air, and that's where they eventually die of their disease. We see more people come here with Behr problems because Behr is a DIY'er's brand, HD is a DIY outlet and caters to them, and this is a DIY forum. Most DIY's wouldn't know how to properly prepare a deck for stain, hell, most painters I've met don't. And the Behr/HD weakness is the lack of an educated sales force, something I tell them on a regular basis, and they know. So the HO is not getting the straight poop on proper deck prep, so their deck is bound to fail. Deck coating failure is widespread problem not limited to the efforts of homeowners. Even the best products will fail on the worst prepped decks.
As said, I'm not here to defend Behr, they're big enough to do that themselves. I've tried on numerous occassions to have someone come into the chatroom to defend themselves, but to date no takers. But I don't take that as due to a indefensible product, but a sad testimony to the guarded way we all have to be in today's environment. That's what's coming back to me when I discuss it with them. They can't figure out a way to get reliable, dependable points out here without risking being sued for a variety of causes.
Look, they're a product among many. Many have their issues with it, personally, I haven't had any. I just get tired of knee-jerk reaction. I can't see a huge company purposely selling a product, on such a large scale, attached to a company the likes of HD, that they know is inferior to the job they claim it can do. That creates a huge, provable liability that could sink them, and do some serious damage to HD's reputation in the process. Most decks fail because people fail their decks, in one way or another, period, and I get tired of simply blaming the product. Let's just use a little logic and commonsense.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:31 PM   #11
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Look at class actions in the past about Behr deck sealers. They paid out big time. I had one deck 8 yrs ago that Behr paid $1800 to strip off the old sealer that had failed. If a deck restoration expert were to use Behr they would not be classified as an expert for very long.
As far as companies selling inferior products WELL THOMPSON'S
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsheridan View Post
I would attribute most all deck failures to inadequate prep, not the chosen material. I would also venture to say that with the proper prep/treatment, that a deck done with Behr would hold up as well as most other brands. I'm not defending Behr, but think about it. Behr is a large company, and making a solid deck stain that will last isn't reinventing the wheel. There is a basic forumula to a deck stain, where they differ is the tweaking around the edges, but the basics are the same. I'm certain that Behr has the resources to do the R&D, and the resources to employ top chemists to do it. Some say Behr is cheap. Is it really?
I pay around the same for some of the products I buy at the regulars. Look at the competitive advantage that Behr has over its competitors, a lot of which could explain price differences. Behr sells out of an already existing otherwise owned structure, so far less overhead with respect to bricks and mortar. Marketing costs are split between Behr and Home Depot, as people who buy Behr paint buy Home Depot paint supplies, as well as non-paint supplies. Behr paint is sold by HD employees, so Behr doesn't have the wage overhead of the regulars. HD buys Behr paint in bulk, and it sells Behr globally, as global pertains to HD's reach. All of these factors can significantly reduce the cost of a product sold through that distribution model.
Did you know that more people die of lung related disease in Arizona than other state in the country? The reason is not because Arizona has worse air, but because those with lung disease move there for the benefits of the air, and that's where they eventually die of their disease. We see more people come here with Behr problems because Behr is a DIY'er's brand, HD is a DIY outlet and caters to them, and this is a DIY forum. Most DIY's wouldn't know how to properly prepare a deck for stain, hell, most painters I've met don't. And the Behr/HD weakness is the lack of an educated sales force, something I tell them on a regular basis, and they know. So the HO is not getting the straight poop on proper deck prep, so their deck is bound to fail. Deck coating failure is widespread problem not limited to the efforts of homeowners. Even the best products will fail on the worst prepped decks.
As said, I'm not here to defend Behr, they're big enough to do that themselves. I've tried on numerous occassions to have someone come into the chatroom to defend themselves, but to date no takers. But I don't take that as due to a indefensible product, but a sad testimony to the guarded way we all have to be in today's environment. That's what's coming back to me when I discuss it with them. They can't figure out a way to get reliable, dependable points out here without risking being sued for a variety of causes.
Look, they're a product among many. Many have their issues with it, personally, I haven't had any. I just get tired of knee-jerk reaction. I can't see a huge company purposely selling a product, on such a large scale, attached to a company the likes of HD, that they know is inferior to the job they claim it can do. That creates a huge, provable liability that could sink them, and do some serious damage to HD's reputation in the process. Most decks fail because people fail their decks, in one way or another, period, and I get tired of simply blaming the product. Let's just use a little logic and commonsense.
Points well made and taken but I lack your faith in corporate responsibility anymore. HD knows it sells an inferior product but so long as people are willing to buy it and liability in terms of court tort settlements is so inconsequential in terms of swimming in gravy profits? Why care?

And once all the paint stores and independent hardware stores are finally squeezed out of business, HD and all win anyhow. Just a matter of time. There will be no alternatives. As far as paint, we will have to buy cans of water with a little pigment in it. Love it or leave it alone.

HD, if you haven't noticed has realized they lost their Consumer Reports position with Behr paints. Advertising in this region has shifted almost totally to their other horrid line. Glidden.

And I am sorry but I have no compassion for the argument it is alright to send ignorant DIYers home with inferior products that give them hope they can accomplish something within even the reach of the products if they worked well. Primer and paint in one, for example? Come on. Suggesting the possibility borders on cruelty. And before they get my respect, the box stores ought to think about hiring some people that actually know the difference between wire nuts, plumbing fittings and paint, pay them a decent---not minimum wage, offer them full-time work, and help employees and their families out with health insurance so my tax dollars do not have to fill in the gaps the box stores leave behind and for public health systems to pick up. And you know, cut the BS about all donation requests for things like local little league jersies having to go through corporate. And box stores, pay your fair share of property taxes for silly things like police and fire.

Bad products, total lack of corporate responsibility, indifference to communities in which the exist---the hallmarks of the box stores.

As for BEHR deck materials. I watched fire escape fire landings being prepped properly last fall. The owner insisted BEHR deck stain be used and so it was. It's all shot and the owner is wanting to suit somebody. It is total and classic crappy material fail. My friend, an upcoming contractor, will now have to waste money and time stating nothing more than he used a product we counseled against in the first place. He will pay legal fees to defend his position in the suit, with no chance of recovering anything unless he suits HD, BEHR and all. And he will have to do so in hopes of getting pennies in some giant tort settlement.

The prior poster was correct. BEHR and HD will settle after time and make everybody promise to keep quiet about things. Meanwhile, they will continue selling the crap. Like I say, settlements and law suits are like annoying mosquito bites to them. Litigating mouths shut is probably the only way than can stifle all the negative comments about BEHR at this point.

Last edited by user1007; 02-26-2012 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:16 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsheridan View Post
I would attribute most all deck failures to inadequate prep, not the chosen material. I would also venture to say that with the proper prep/treatment, that a deck done with Behr would hold up as well as most other brands. I'm not defending Behr, but think about it. Behr is a large company, and making a solid deck stain that will last isn't reinventing the wheel. There is a basic forumula to a deck stain, where they differ is the tweaking around the edges, but the basics are the same. I'm certain that Behr has the resources to do the R&D, and the resources to employ top chemists to do it. Some say Behr is cheap. Is it really?
I pay around the same for some of the products I buy at the regulars. Look at the competitive advantage that Behr has over its competitors, a lot of which could explain price differences. Behr sells out of an already existing otherwise owned structure, so far less overhead with respect to bricks and mortar. Marketing costs are split between Behr and Home Depot, as people who buy Behr paint buy Home Depot paint supplies, as well as non-paint supplies. Behr paint is sold by HD employees, so Behr doesn't have the wage overhead of the regulars. HD buys Behr paint in bulk, and it sells Behr globally, as global pertains to HD's reach. All of these factors can significantly reduce the cost of a product sold through that distribution model.
Did you know that more people die of lung related disease in Arizona than other state in the country? The reason is not because Arizona has worse air, but because those with lung disease move there for the benefits of the air, and that's where they eventually die of their disease. We see more people come here with Behr problems because Behr is a DIY'er's brand, HD is a DIY outlet and caters to them, and this is a DIY forum. Most DIY's wouldn't know how to properly prepare a deck for stain, hell, most painters I've met don't. And the Behr/HD weakness is the lack of an educated sales force, something I tell them on a regular basis, and they know. So the HO is not getting the straight poop on proper deck prep, so their deck is bound to fail. Deck coating failure is widespread problem not limited to the efforts of homeowners. Even the best products will fail on the worst prepped decks.
As said, I'm not here to defend Behr, they're big enough to do that themselves. I've tried on numerous occassions to have someone come into the chatroom to defend themselves, but to date no takers. But I don't take that as due to a indefensible product, but a sad testimony to the guarded way we all have to be in today's environment. That's what's coming back to me when I discuss it with them. They can't figure out a way to get reliable, dependable points out here without risking being sued for a variety of causes.
Look, they're a product among many. Many have their issues with it, personally, I haven't had any. I just get tired of knee-jerk reaction. I can't see a huge company purposely selling a product, on such a large scale, attached to a company the likes of HD, that they know is inferior to the job they claim it can do. That creates a huge, provable liability that could sink them, and do some serious damage to HD's reputation in the process. Most decks fail because people fail their decks, in one way or another, period, and I get tired of simply blaming the product. Let's just use a little logic and commonsense.
I'm speaking from experience. I've been to numerous properties where there decks have been stained about a year prior or so and the decks are already failing. When I ask them what was applied, they say bear. I have also seen bear semi-transparent deck stain wash away and be stripped with low pressure and sodium per carbonate. Sodium per carbonate is a cleaner, not a stripper and I have not seen other deck stains that will just wash away as if they are being stripped using low pressure and sodium per carbonate. I do agree that most failures probably are attributed to improper prep, but I have seen many decks stained with bear failing vs. Decks stained with other deck stains.
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Old 02-26-2012, 05:25 PM   #14
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Gentlemen, I had about three paragraphs of a response done and got tired of the argument. Each of your counterpoints can be picked apart or explained as big business in America.
Lawsuits - I found one class action about a particular clear product which didn't inhibit mildew as claimed, not the brand in general. Every company faces lawsuits as a cost of business, including one I found about unfair labor and compensation practices involving SW SDS.
Product quality - Since very few pros use Behr deck products, the large majority of failures occur with HO's. Does anybody really believe that if all those HO's were using SW or BM, or Cabot's or Sikkens, that high failure rates wouldn't occur, if they also had the equivalent lack of education from those stores? Education levels among pro stores staff is not what it used to be either, for anyone. They're more and more just clerks. Tom, how can you be sure that the semi-trans wasn't put over still present wax type coating, like Thompson's? Because the customer said so?
The Behr company was founded in 1947 and made nothing but stains until HD encouraged them to manufacture paints that they could market. It's just that the negativity about quality of the product doesn't jive with the growing volume and market share they've achieved. To discount it as stupid people being fooled into making stupid decisions is weak. Just my opinion.
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Old 02-26-2012, 07:28 PM   #15
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Thank you all for your inputs. I appreciate all the advice and interesting information.

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