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Old 07-07-2013, 10:22 AM   #16
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


Sherwin Williams Emerald would be an example more relevant to this thread. Same as Aura, the top recommended system for new drywall is two coats of emerald.

http://www.mabpaints.com/products/td...odno=K37W00350


Once again, I'm not trashing primer at all. And using primer is one of the accepted systems for Emerald.

I just want to point out that when we trash "Paint & primer" that's not specific to Behr, or any one company. The fact that Behr uses that marketing phrase at all, gets them a lot of flack from the pro community. The wording of that phrase offends us some how (pros), like they are trying to cheat or something.

BM and SW make the same self priming claims as Behr, they just market it differently.

In regards to the OP, the salesman at the first store you went too clearly didn't understand what you as a customer were looking for in a system.
But I do not think he/she was misrepresenting the company by telling you the system recommended for there top line paints (Emerald/duration).

If they were telling you not to prime for 'classic 99, or Pro mar 400, that's a different story.

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Old 07-07-2013, 11:19 AM   #17
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


yes they say you don't need primer on new bare drywall.
yes the wall board will soak it right up
now does it soak into the new drywall compound? im going to say NO!
i've been on lots of jobs where the paint peels like a banana where the drywall compound is, mainly where a corner bead gets bashed. and the jobs were painted with BM arura.
i don't recommend painting new drywall without a primer
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:07 PM   #18
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


I don't have enough field experience to have developed a personal judgment on how these new products perform on new drywall.

Actually, the only time I used Emerald on new work, it was primed white and finished with two coats of dark red, and dark green in another area. I was very happy with the results.

I have also tried them or previously painted drywall with extreme color change and been happy with (surprised even) at the results.


I'm interested in hearing reviews from others (good or bad) on these products. This is where the industry as a whole is at right now. Manufactures are telling us there new products will do X, and we have to decide for ourselves if this supposed improvement is valid, or not.

There seems to be a vague misconception that the box stores are telling people not to prime, and a 'real paint store' will set them strait and sell them some primer. When in fact most modern systems make similar claims for there new technology.
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Old 07-07-2013, 01:26 PM   #19
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


i find the new paints to have alot better coverage over extreme color changes and alot of the time with light colours you question if you should even put a second coat on.
but as for as actually priming the surface i think they are still far off.
like others have stated why use expensive paint to prime? and i totally agree! here locally a decent primer runs around $18-30 a gallon and a high quality paint $50-70 a gallon.
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Old 07-07-2013, 04:48 PM   #20
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


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Originally Posted by Jmayspaint View Post
Your certainly right Chrisn. And that system has been tried and tested over and over for years.

Just to keep it specific, we are still talking about new drywall.
Do you think most painters think they know better than the designers of coating systems? In other words, do we assume because this is the way its always been done, no change in the chemistry of paint can possibly change the fact that priming wall board is better than not?

Direct from BM, (our favorite, and arguably most trusted manufacturer) ; " Aura Eggshell Finish is self priming on most surfaces. Aura will act as its own primer, providing the OPTIMAL foundation for the subsequent finish coat"

There are exceptions given for difficult/problem substrates, and very dark colors. But for new wall board, it seems pretty cut and dry. The Benjamin Moore company, ( not one salesman, or a plumber ) are telling us there new paint is different. Its a completely new formula that uses new colorants. And performs better WITHOUT primer on Sheetrock.
They could be making this up I suppose, but after dealing with this company and there Reps successfully for many years I'm inclined to trust them on this one.
http://www.benjaminmoore.com/Downloa...tds%2FTDS_0524

No, I do not think that at all but I am not going to be the ginny(sp) pig with my customers and not prime new drywall. I do not care what the man from NC says, primer is still cheaper than $60 finish paint. I will continue to prime new drywall , not that I do not think that Aura, Emerald, etc will not work, but to me a coat of primer first, THEN 2 coats of said paint is the way to do the job right and give the best surface. I am an old man and that's just the way I am going to stay.
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Old 07-07-2013, 07:20 PM   #21
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


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Originally Posted by Jmayspaint View Post
Your certainly right Chrisn. And that system has been tried and tested over and over for years.

Just to keep it specific, we are still talking about new drywall.
Do you think most painters think they know better than the designers of coating systems? In other words, do we assume because this is the way its always been done, no change in the chemistry of paint can possibly change the fact that priming wall board is better than not?

Direct from BM, (our favorite, and arguably most trusted manufacturer) ; " Aura Eggshell Finish is self priming on most surfaces. Aura will act as its own primer, providing the OPTIMAL foundation for the subsequent finish coat"

There are exceptions given for difficult/problem substrates, and very dark colors. But for new wall board, it seems pretty cut and dry. The Benjamin Moore company, ( not one salesman, or a plumber ) are telling us there new paint is different. Its a completely new formula that uses new colorants. And performs better WITHOUT primer on Sheetrock.
They could be making this up I suppose, but after dealing with this company and there Reps successfully for many years I'm inclined to trust them on this one.
http://www.benjaminmoore.com/Downloa...tds%2FTDS_0524
In some cases yes. And I feel the big push for all in one came from the big box stores because they knew HO were looking for the easy way and to skip a major step would be great, and it worked. Then the other players just jumped on board since they were losing millions. These companies knew a HO would settle for an OK paint job if it was easier. As a pro painter I don't want just an OK paint job I want a WOW paint job. And where I am 123 is $18 a gallon compared to $60 or $70 a gallon for a gimmick. Just me but I won't take the chance.
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:40 PM   #22
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


I know I've said I wasn't gonna address this issue again - and I meant it - then...but it seems we haven't got this whole prime & finish thing all worked out yet so here I go again.

To begin with, Painters: Please, for your own professional edification and credibility, learn about the new technologies available to you from paint manufacturers - read about the new developments that will absolutely impact your business and standing with your customers...Understand that this paint & primer phenomena is NOT a marketing gimmick - that, while the name can be a little misleading, P&P's are the result of applied scientific advancements in resin technology! P&P's are (generally) NOT just re-labeled, existing formulated products AND they are not simply the mixing of primer and paint together. These products are advanced resins that have the sealing, hold-out, binding and, in some cases, stain-blocking characteristics equal to that of both general and specialty primers, PLUS the un-compromised integrity of a fine finish (as it relates to washability and stain, burnish and blocking resistance.

Next, Manufacturers: What the hell is wrong with you people? You've introduced product lines that pretty much boldly state you can ignore decades of generally (actually universally) accepted, proper painting procedure without providing your employees, dealers and professional applicators any back up literature or training on the features, advantages and benefits of such innovative advancements? ...and if in fact these products are actually capable of performing in such a way to "eliminate" the need for a separate primer, why in the hell haven't you broached this subject with the architectural and engineering spec-writers across the nation?

This is a fascinating discussion. Regardless of what I've said regarding the actual characteristics and performance of these new advanced resins, I absolutely agree with most of the painters here that adamantly refuse to stop using a primer since the introduction of P&P's - I don't always agree with their reasons, but I agree about their using a primer (even with high end finishes).

Myself, I'm more closely aligned with manufacturers than with painters...but here's the thing about manufacturers and marketing - Paint manufacturers are very good at providing viable, high performing products (in an often-times changing or unstable environment) to resolve all sorts of paint related problems...what they're not very good at is creating market demand for new products and technologies. Was there ever really a need - or more importantly - a demand for a primer-less system? Or is this a really stupid ploy to create such an appeal to an ignorant and unassuming consumer that he then creates the demand to the painter - then ultimately the architects, engineers and spec-writers? If so - manufacturers, you're dumb.

Chris said it best - he's not gonna be a guinea pig for a manufacturer's (so far) unsubstantiated claims. And why should he? If this system doesn't perform as stated, Chris gets the blame, not the manufacturer. In this god-forsaken business we all represent in some way, we need to realize that any able bodied person can apply paint...Painters are really not a necessity - unless you want the job done right, then he (or she) adds just a tad more value to the equation. And, as Toolseeker says, the "WOW" factor is what is often times going to make the difference of a consumer hiring a painter, or attempting the project themselves next time.

So, will 2 coats of latex work on bare drywall without the use of a primer? Yup. Will 2 coats of P&P perform as well as 1 coat prime and 1 coat finish? Um...possibly. Unfortunately, you may not be able to answer that question for a few, to several years after the P&P has been applied...or maybe just until the next time the room gets painted...

Just as a recap, technology, even in paint, is changing at blinding speed. Painters, you must keep up with the changes. New technologies are here whether you want 'em to be or not and they will change the way you conduct business. Manufacturers, you are going down a dangerous path when you attempt to exclude the painting professional in your marketing scheme...P&P's, No Prep Formulations (thank you Sherwin for that dumb-ass stunt), Consumer Self Serve labeling, etc. - are all designs to minimize, or eliminate, the need for professional painters or for inexperienced homeowners to rely on experienced sales help.

I'm done.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:48 AM   #23
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


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These companies knew a HO would settle for an OK paint job if it was easier..
They also know MOST people no longer live in the same home for 30 or 40 years like our grandparents did, most people change houses about as often as they change cars, about a 3-7 year cycle or so, chances are real good they'll paint the house and MOVE before the paint ever needs to be redone on that house again, they'll paint the next house and whomever winds up with the one they sold it's their problem now.
Chances are good too the next owners won't want the SAME color paints anyway and they'll be painting that house.
I'm still in my FIRST house 16 years later, the original paint was all but down to bare grey clapboard when I moved in, I primed and painted it 2 coats with latex paint either from from Ace hardware or Hardware Hank's house brand that was around $20 a gallon, and the paint lasted a good 14 years before I repainted it. I repainted it mostly due to some peeling in spots where the old paint was tight and didn't scrape off 16 years ago, and it was getting dusty/dirty.
I felt I more than got my monies worth out of that paint.


Quote:
You've introduced product lines that pretty much boldly state you can ignore decades of generally (actually universally) accepted, proper painting procedure without providing your employees, dealers and professional applicators any back up literature or training on the features, advantages and benefits of such innovative advancements? ...and if in fact these products are actually capable of performing in such a way to "eliminate" the need for a separate primer, why in the hell haven't you broached this subject with the architectural and engineering spec-writers across the nation?
Maybe they know under heavy scrutiny/testing by pros not HO who will paint today and move out in 3-5 years- their claims will fall flat on the floor.
I'm not a fan of the "new and improved formula" or "new and improved" advertising garbage, I've seen enough of the "new and improved" totally fail to even meet the previous quality/performance on things to know better than fall for that.

It's all about the money and maximum profits, again because in today's throwaway highly mobile society people do not live in one house for 40 years, drive the same old car they bought in High School 25 years ago, or keep the same cell phone longer than about a year.

Almost everything you buy is all but designed on purpose with shoddy manufacturing, and cheap materials to break down soon after any warrantee.
People shop by PRICE, that's why Chinese stuff sells so well and is the country of origin for the majority of products we buy now.

You look at how plastics crack and break quickly even though they were flexible when new, look at the "Rubbermaid" garbage pails and laundry baskets- after a few months they all get brittle and CRACK, I've never had one that didn't.

Last edited by RWolff; 07-08-2013 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:12 AM   #24
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


Ric I totally agree if you don't keep up with the changes in your trade you will be left behind. That is why I stated I have used some of these products, unfortunately with dismal results. Now let me say upfront these were not high end paints, they would be considered low and medium end. I cannot talk a customer into $60 or $70 a gallon for paint when I don't know what to expect. And yes I agree most of the fault lies with the paint companies for putting out bad and sometimes mis-leading info. I think the reason for the "gimmick" feeling is all info on these products seems geared toward the HO and none toward the painter. This post is a great example 2 stores with the same company and totally opposite view points if they can't decide how, then how can we.
I am old enough to have been around when latex paint came into being and then it was horrible, look where it is now. This may happen to the all-in ones also but right now I think they have a long way to go to build the confidence level. One thing I have always asked myself is would I use it in my house, and at this point the answer is no.
And please Ric don't be done I feel there are things to be learned in a discussion like this.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:54 AM   #25
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


It is important, as Ric points out for all applicators and end users of products to keep up with industry trends and improvements. The marketing hype gets in the way sometimes, although it confuses more than it provides information. As Toolseeker says, paint technology has come a long way over the years.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:51 PM   #26
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


Thank you all for your posts. Interesting points for all sides of the discussion. I too would love to hear what the technical peeps at the manufacturers have to say. Part of me wonders if the P&P is a nod towards the fact that we have been programmed to prime (if you are doing the job correctly - I know I have lol). Maybe the products that we have today have been developed so as not to require a primer anymore or maybe not the full blown version. Maybe in the future it will disappear except for extreme circumstances (like for the eggplant purple I have dealt with lol)

Reading all the posts I am now interested in seeing what the difference is at the level of paint I will be using. Or if there even is one, especially based on the two different approaches from the stores. I know if there is going to be a difference, it would be more pronounced on bare drywall than just a single coat of paint over another coat.

I am volunteering to be the guinea pig on one small AC closet but it will a few weeks - I am looking at a mound of drywall that just does not want to go away no matter how much I ignore it.

I am going to do 2 coats with no primer on the closet and primer and 2 coats on the rest. Colors will be the same so we shall see.

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Old 07-15-2013, 02:08 PM   #27
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


Sorry to resurrect this thread, but i am dying to know how this turned out. If the op had some success without primer, I would love to hear about it. I do know that bare sheetrock is like a sponge, but that is precisely why I think it may be one of the few instances where you could get away without primer. The first coat is maybe going to bond a little better because it has something to adhere to in the paper fibres.

I know that primer becomes more important as the smoothness increases on the surface to be painted.

As for primerless paints, I can only comment on the DTM or direct to metal paints. They do NOT adhere anywhere near as well to metal as a proper primer will. The manufacturers chemists may argue the point, but I have direct experience that shows the opposite.

As far as the op is concerned, I just don't think they can provide a high-solid paint with the viscosity needed to bond to a porous surface as well as a primer. In other words, my prediction is that the higher quality the paint, the LESS it will work as a primer.
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Old 07-16-2013, 01:58 AM   #28
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


No worries on resurrection...the OP is still hanging drywall so hopefully it wont be long
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Old 07-17-2013, 03:38 PM   #29
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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......


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Originally Posted by ric knows paint View Post
this paint & primer phenomena is NOT a marketing gimmick - that, while the name can be a little misleading, P&P's are the result of applied scientific advancements in resin technology! P&P's are (generally) NOT just re-labeled, existing formulated products AND they are not simply the mixing of primer and paint together. These products are advanced resins that have the sealing, hold-out, binding and, in some cases, stain-blocking characteristics equal to that of both general and specialty primers, PLUS the un-compromised integrity of a fine finish (as it relates to washability and stain, burnish and blocking resistance.
They need to stand the test of time before they are accepted by the masses. I would be interested to know exactly what formula changes they have made as of recent as we have had self priming paints for a while and they have not lived up to their expectations. Many of those so called new technologies fail miserably in the field. Some examples are almost anything latex claiming to stain block, latex deck stains and like chantry mentioned the DTM's.

I am all for new technologies but a lot of times they end up failing miserably.
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Old 07-17-2013, 04:38 PM   #30
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I am all for new technologies but a lot of times they end up failing miserably.
I couldn't agree with you more and it isn't just paint.

LP and Masonite sidings, Trex and other early composite decking, organic roof shingles. All miserable failures on a large scale.

I've sold and install all of them and it burns my ass now because at the time I convinced my customers that those products were the way to go.

I spent 15 years being a Ginny Pig for those new technology’s but now for the last 15 I've been on the wait and see approach. There are plenty of time tested products on the market.

I'll never use "My Customers" for the manufactures experiments again.

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