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So a chick walks into a Sherwin Williams store......

8K views 49 replies 19 participants last post by  Thom Paine 
#1 ·
I wish there was a punch line to this joke but there isn't.

Went to a local SW store to see about getting some sealer and primer as the drywall is about to go in. Need a boatload and thought okay they have nagged me enough on DIY I will go check out Sherwin Williams. Never been to this store before - this is what transpired - abbreviated version but you get the gist.....


Me - Need some drywall sealer and primer for house with new drywall.

Chick behind counter - You don't need to seal or prime new drywall. Priming is for going over older paint. You don't ever need to prime new drywall. Just do two coats of paint and it will be fine

Me - ummmmm....I think I do need to prime it what about the drywall fuzzies (note the technical term) from sanding and flashing from the taping and mudding.

Chick - Nope don't need it just two coats of paint. Trust me I have been painting for years.

Ended up getting out of there as quick as I could. Talk about losing a big sale and not so good advice.

:eek:


So I got on the yelling bone to the hubby and asked for the other location nearby....Polar opposites. Told him what the other store said and he just shook his head. This store was great and the guy happened to be the manager and after hearing what we are dealing with even went so far as to offer us some deep discounts that will allow us to get da good stuff at the box store prices....so now we shall see if this stuff is worth all the fuss :laughing:


Robyn
 
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#22 ·
I know I've said I wasn't gonna address this issue again - and I meant it - then...but it seems we haven't got this whole prime & finish thing all worked out yet so here I go again.

To begin with, Painters: Please, for your own professional edification and credibility, learn about the new technologies available to you from paint manufacturers - read about the new developments that will absolutely impact your business and standing with your customers...Understand that this paint & primer phenomena is NOT a marketing gimmick - that, while the name can be a little misleading, P&P's are the result of applied scientific advancements in resin technology! P&P's are (generally) NOT just re-labeled, existing formulated products AND they are not simply the mixing of primer and paint together. These products are advanced resins that have the sealing, hold-out, binding and, in some cases, stain-blocking characteristics equal to that of both general and specialty primers, PLUS the un-compromised integrity of a fine finish (as it relates to washability and stain, burnish and blocking resistance.

Next, Manufacturers: What the hell is wrong with you people? You've introduced product lines that pretty much boldly state you can ignore decades of generally (actually universally) accepted, proper painting procedure without providing your employees, dealers and professional applicators any back up literature or training on the features, advantages and benefits of such innovative advancements? ...and if in fact these products are actually capable of performing in such a way to "eliminate" the need for a separate primer, why in the hell haven't you broached this subject with the architectural and engineering spec-writers across the nation?

This is a fascinating discussion. Regardless of what I've said regarding the actual characteristics and performance of these new advanced resins, I absolutely agree with most of the painters here that adamantly refuse to stop using a primer since the introduction of P&P's - I don't always agree with their reasons, but I agree about their using a primer (even with high end finishes).

Myself, I'm more closely aligned with manufacturers than with painters...but here's the thing about manufacturers and marketing - Paint manufacturers are very good at providing viable, high performing products (in an often-times changing or unstable environment) to resolve all sorts of paint related problems...what they're not very good at is creating market demand for new products and technologies. Was there ever really a need - or more importantly - a demand for a primer-less system? Or is this a really stupid ploy to create such an appeal to an ignorant and unassuming consumer that he then creates the demand to the painter - then ultimately the architects, engineers and spec-writers? If so - manufacturers, you're dumb.

Chris said it best - he's not gonna be a guinea pig for a manufacturer's (so far) unsubstantiated claims. And why should he? If this system doesn't perform as stated, Chris gets the blame, not the manufacturer. In this god-forsaken business we all represent in some way, we need to realize that any able bodied person can apply paint...Painters are really not a necessity - unless you want the job done right, then he (or she) adds just a tad more value to the equation. And, as Toolseeker says, the "WOW" factor is what is often times going to make the difference of a consumer hiring a painter, or attempting the project themselves next time.

So, will 2 coats of latex work on bare drywall without the use of a primer? Yup. Will 2 coats of P&P perform as well as 1 coat prime and 1 coat finish? Um...possibly. Unfortunately, you may not be able to answer that question for a few, to several years after the P&P has been applied...or maybe just until the next time the room gets painted...

Just as a recap, technology, even in paint, is changing at blinding speed. Painters, you must keep up with the changes. New technologies are here whether you want 'em to be or not and they will change the way you conduct business. Manufacturers, you are going down a dangerous path when you attempt to exclude the painting professional in your marketing scheme...P&P's, No Prep Formulations (thank you Sherwin for that dumb-ass stunt), Consumer Self Serve labeling, etc. - are all designs to minimize, or eliminate, the need for professional painters or for inexperienced homeowners to rely on experienced sales help.

I'm done.
 
#29 ·
this paint & primer phenomena is NOT a marketing gimmick - that, while the name can be a little misleading, P&P's are the result of applied scientific advancements in resin technology! P&P's are (generally) NOT just re-labeled, existing formulated products AND they are not simply the mixing of primer and paint together. These products are advanced resins that have the sealing, hold-out, binding and, in some cases, stain-blocking characteristics equal to that of both general and specialty primers, PLUS the un-compromised integrity of a fine finish (as it relates to washability and stain, burnish and blocking resistance.
They need to stand the test of time before they are accepted by the masses. I would be interested to know exactly what formula changes they have made as of recent as we have had self priming paints for a while and they have not lived up to their expectations. Many of those so called new technologies fail miserably in the field. Some examples are almost anything latex claiming to stain block, latex deck stains and like chantry mentioned the DTM's.

I am all for new technologies but a lot of times they end up failing miserably.
 
#37 ·
Wanted to update this thread since I finally got some freaking paint on a wall lol.

Did as stated in the closet. Had one section that I did not put on the SW pva primer (almost forgot and did the whole shebang).

Put the two coats of SW Duration on and yup....the section that I did not prime was like I had invented a wormhole, it was all I could do to grab the paint can and stop the wall from sucking me and the whole can in.

I could definitely see a difference in the unprimed section versus the primed after one coat and slight difference after the second coat. Not just a color thing, but also a little bit of a difference in the texture. The primed wall is smoother.

I will definitely keep priming nekked drywall. I really think that if you are using a higher grade of paint its not worth the money to have the first coat be the primer, at least if you are buying Duration and left your inheritance in your other pants.

Robyn
 
#2 · (Edited)
forcedreno2012 said:
Me - Need some drywall sealer and primer for house with new drywall.

Chick behind counter - You don't need to seal or prime new drywall. Priming is for going over older paint. You don't ever need to prime new drywall. Just do two coats of paint and it will be fine

Me - ummmmm....I think I do need to prime it what about the drywall fuzzies (note the technical term) from sanding and flashing from the taping and mudding.

Chick - Nope don't need it just two coats of paint. Trust me I have been painting for years.

Robyn



















It kinda depends on what lines of paint your shopping for.

The top interior lines of several manufactures are formulated to be used without primer. They don't advertise the fact as much as Bher and Valspar, but SW Duration and Emerald, and BM Aura are all meant to be applied straight to new drywall.

Its not like Bher invented the idea of not priming drywall. SW Duration was one of the first real self priming paints.

Primer is great, but I'm skeptical of the idea that with newer paint systems that no longer recommend primer, that its still better to prime.... Maybe... Maybe the painters out putting on the paint know better than the chemists that design and test coating systems....think the jury is still out on that one...(probably always will be);)
 
#42 ·
It kinda depends on what lines of paint your shopping for.

The top interior lines of several manufactures are formulated to be used without primer. They don't advertise the fact as much as Bher and Valspar, but SW Duration and Emerald, and BM Aura are all meant to be applied straight to new drywall.

Its not like Bher invented the idea of not priming drywall. SW Duration was one of the first real self priming paints.

Primer is great, but I'm skeptical of the idea that with newer paint systems that no longer recommend primer, that its still better to prime.... Maybe... Maybe the painters out putting on the paint know better than the chemists that design and test coating systems....think the jury is still out on that one...(probably always will be);)
I find that best results come from priming new drywall or painted drywall with TINTED primer 1st, then more often than not only need on coat of good quality paint!
 
#4 ·
One thing is for sure, new drywall sucks up paint like a sponge, if you dont prime/seal it, and one of the pros on here said it before, Why use an expensive finish paint to do the job of a relatively inexpensive sealer/primer?

Sure, the manufacturers would love for you to buy twice as much of their expensive brew, so thats why the thickchick said that.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Not necessarily. The answer is "it depends". Using primer is not necessarily cheaper than using paint. (I'd show my math, but some people get very agitated and smoke comes out their ears when actual facts and figures are shown. I guess analytical thinking isn't that big in the trades:) )

If primer is needed depends on sheen of paint, quality of paint, number of coats, etc. Actually both the SW salesperson were wrong. First chick should have said "it depends", and second guy should not be shaking his head. Basically any "polar opposites" view of this is going to be wrong.
 
#5 · (Edited)
jagans said:
One thing is for sure, new drywall sucks up paint like a sponge, if you dont prime/seal it, and one of the pros on here said it before, Why use an expensive finish paint to do the job of a relatively inexpensive sealer/primer?

Sure, the manufacturers would love for you to buy twice as much of their expensive brew, so thats why the thickchick said that.
Yea, I understand ya there. The thing is with most of the expensive self priming paints, (Aura, Emerald) and others, two coats is required for the system to be warrantied. (Duration is an exception*). So, priming and using one coat, while it will probably look good, doesn't get enough finished product on to get the intended, thus warrantable' results.

I kind of look at it the other way. If I'm going to sell expensive paints, might as well put as much on as they say, and get the most out of the paint, and a warranty, rather than substitute part of the film with primer.

I'm not being 'anti primer' or anything. I just want to counter the idea that box stores invented paint that doesn't require primer on simple substrates like dry wall. This advance is huge with all makers of paint. SW, and BM have also put a lot of effort into these advancements.
They just market the concept differently.

I'm impressed with the new paints myself. All of them really.

* Duration needs to be applied twice as thickly as a normal paint to be warranted in one coat (8mil)
Edit: was thinking of exterior there^^,not sure interior
 
#11 ·
This thread brings up some interesting questions.

If you asked SW or BM "what is your recommended system for painting new drywall with your top line product" what would they say?
I don't mean the opinion of a certain store manager or one paint rep, but company policy.

Do we assume they are wrong about what these new products can do? No, products don't always live up to expectations. Only time will tell if the new systems will live up the claims made that they are so advanced that priming on some substrates Is no longer necessary for optimal results.

My bet is that they know what they are talking about for the most part.
 
#26 ·
Thank you all for your posts. Interesting points for all sides of the discussion. I too would love to hear what the technical peeps at the manufacturers have to say. Part of me wonders if the P&P is a nod towards the fact that we have been programmed to prime (if you are doing the job correctly - I know I have lol). Maybe the products that we have today have been developed so as not to require a primer anymore or maybe not the full blown version. Maybe in the future it will disappear except for extreme circumstances (like for the eggplant purple I have dealt with lol)

Reading all the posts I am now interested in seeing what the difference is at the level of paint I will be using. Or if there even is one, especially based on the two different approaches from the stores. I know if there is going to be a difference, it would be more pronounced on bare drywall than just a single coat of paint over another coat.

I am volunteering to be the guinea pig on one small AC closet but it will a few weeks - I am looking at a mound of drywall that just does not want to go away no matter how much I ignore it.

I am going to do 2 coats with no primer on the closet and primer and 2 coats on the rest. Colors will be the same so we shall see.

Robyn
 
#38 ·
Thanks for the update Robin. I hope you can post some pics of your project.


Just a note on the Paint&primer theme that we were discussing in this thread. I don't think it was ever mentioned what specific SW brand was being used until now (or if it was I missed it)

Duration Home Interior paint is actually not a paint & primer and/or self priming product. Unlike some other SW lines (Emerald, super paint), Duration calls for a primer on new Sheetrock.

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/PDS/en/035777440254/

So, back to the OP. if an SW employer was trying to tell you not to prime for Duration interior specifically, they really didn't know what they were talking about and were miss representing the product specs.
 
#39 ·
Thanks for the update Robin. I hope you can post some pics of your project.


Just a note on the Paint&primer theme that we were discussing in this thread. I don't think it was ever mentioned what specific SW brand was being used until now (or if it was I missed it)

Duration Home Interior paint is actually not a paint & primer and/or self priming product. Unlike some other SW lines (Emerald, super paint), Duration calls for a primer on new Sheetrock.

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/PDS/en/035777440254/

So, back to the OP. if an SW employer was trying to tell you not to prime for Duration interior specifically, they really didn't know what they were talking about and were miss representing the product specs.

Whhhhhaaaaaaaaatttttttt, you mean this could actually happen:eek::eek::eek:
 
#41 ·
The Benjamin Moore equivalent to Sherwin Williams SuperPaint is Regal (although there is Regal Classic, Regal Premium, and Regal Select). The BM equivalent to SW Duration is Aura.

Regal is self-priming (except for Premium). SuperPaint is self-priming.

Aura is self-priming. Duration is not.

Go figure.
 
#3 ·
J maybe I'm wrong Maybe you are I'm sure someone on here will let us know. It is my understanding the paint no primer deal is recommended more for use on previously painted surfaces not really new drywall. I have not used them all but I will say the ones I have used were very disappointing. And none lived up to expectations. Maybe what I said was confusing The only time I have used them is over painted surfaces.
Maybe Ric will chime in.
 
#7 ·
It is my understanding the paint no primer deal is recommended more for use on previously painted surfaces not really new drywall.
Let's think about that for a minute. Let's assume the paint is in good condition. So should it need a coat of primer before a new coat of paint? Well, if it did, then how would you ever get 2 coats of any finish paint on there? If you had to prime before every coat of paint, then you'd never finish.

Of course paint/primer in one is marketed toward bare drywall, because regular paint doesn't need primer. If it does, then there's some other problem involved, and in that case it's probably not the kind of problem that paint/primer can solve anyway. If anything, you might need to scuff sand glossy surfaces before the next coat, but not prime them.
 
#10 ·
I cannot believe people are actually recommending not priming bare drywall. Can you get away with not priming bare drywall? Sure. Can it cause huge problems down the road? You bet. It's like letting your unspayed female cat out one night while in heat. If she didn’t didn't get pregnant tonight, maybe I don’t need to spay her.
 
#12 ·
One thing is for sure, new drywall sucks up paint like a sponge, if you dont prime/seal it, and one of the pros on here said it before, Why use an expensive finish paint to do the job of a relatively inexpensive sealer/primer?
Because there's no such thing any more as inexpensive primer, the stuff costs almost as must as the PAINT does these days, gone are the days when you could get white wall primer for like $6.99 and the paint was lots more now it's more like $24 for the primer and $29 for the paint now.

If you use good quality paint to begin with instead of cheap watered down $9.95 junk, you aren't having to apply primer to make up for the cheap paints' lack of hiding and coverage issues.
I've had good results with Hardware Hank's own brand, it's thick and heavy bodied and hides well. I've never had to apply more than 2 coats of it.
 
#13 ·
Some interesting points so far. Definitely agree on the sucking up of the paint - I have dealt with it going over flat paint so I am sure the effect is worse on nekked drywall. I will be priming. I am not going to shell out a bunch of money on the good stuff to be disappointed in the finish. I may try just the two coats without priming on a closet wall just to see what the difference is with not priming.

Robyn
 
#15 ·
chrisn said:
Any professional painter will tell you that a quality primer and 2 coats of quality paint is the way to go on bare drywall. No matter what sales people and people from other trades say.
Your certainly right Chrisn. And that system has been tried and tested over and over for years.

Just to keep it specific, we are still talking about new drywall.
Do you think most painters think they know better than the designers of coating systems? In other words, do we assume because this is the way its always been done, no change in the chemistry of paint can possibly change the fact that priming wall board is better than not?

Direct from BM, (our favorite, and arguably most trusted manufacturer) ; " Aura Eggshell Finish is self priming on most surfaces. Aura will act as its own primer, providing the OPTIMAL foundation for the subsequent finish coat"

There are exceptions given for difficult/problem substrates, and very dark colors. But for new wall board, it seems pretty cut and dry. The Benjamin Moore company, ( not one salesman, or a plumber;) ) are telling us there new paint is different. Its a completely new formula that uses new colorants. And performs better WITHOUT primer on Sheetrock.
They could be making this up I suppose, but after dealing with this company and there Reps successfully for many years I'm inclined to trust them on this one.
http://www.benjaminmoore.com/Downlo..._US&np=productcatalog_datasheets/tds/TDS_0524
 
#20 ·
Your certainly right Chrisn. And that system has been tried and tested over and over for years.

Just to keep it specific, we are still talking about new drywall.
Do you think most painters think they know better than the designers of coating systems? In other words, do we assume because this is the way its always been done, no change in the chemistry of paint can possibly change the fact that priming wall board is better than not?

Direct from BM, (our favorite, and arguably most trusted manufacturer) ; " Aura Eggshell Finish is self priming on most surfaces. Aura will act as its own primer, providing the OPTIMAL foundation for the subsequent finish coat"

There are exceptions given for difficult/problem substrates, and very dark colors. But for new wall board, it seems pretty cut and dry. The Benjamin Moore company, ( not one salesman, or a plumber;) ) are telling us there new paint is different. Its a completely new formula that uses new colorants. And performs better WITHOUT primer on Sheetrock.
They could be making this up I suppose, but after dealing with this company and there Reps successfully for many years I'm inclined to trust them on this one.
http://www.benjaminmoore.com/Downlo..._US&np=productcatalog_datasheets/tds/TDS_0524

No, I do not think that at all but I am not going to be the ginny(sp) pig with my customers and not prime new drywall. I do not care what the man from NC says, primer is still cheaper than $60 finish paint. I will continue to prime new drywall , not that I do not think that Aura, Emerald, etc will not work, but to me a coat of primer first, THEN 2 coats of said paint is the way to do the job right and give the best surface. I am an old man and that's just the way I am going to stay.
 
#16 ·
Sherwin Williams Emerald would be an example more relevant to this thread. Same as Aura, the top recommended system for new drywall is two coats of emerald.

http://www.mabpaints.com/products/tdsmsds_Result.asp?DocType=PDS&Language=E&prodno=K37W00350


Once again, I'm not trashing primer at all. And using primer is one of the accepted systems for Emerald.

I just want to point out that when we trash "Paint & primer" that's not specific to Behr, or any one company. The fact that Behr uses that marketing phrase at all, gets them a lot of flack from the pro community. The wording of that phrase offends us some how (pros), like they are trying to cheat or something.

BM and SW make the same self priming claims as Behr, they just market it differently.

In regards to the OP, the salesman at the first store you went too clearly didn't understand what you as a customer were looking for in a system.
But I do not think he/she was misrepresenting the company by telling you the system recommended for there top line paints (Emerald/duration).

If they were telling you not to prime for 'classic 99, or Pro mar 400, that's a different story.
 
#17 ·
yes they say you don't need primer on new bare drywall.
yes the wall board will soak it right up
now does it soak into the new drywall compound? im going to say NO!
i've been on lots of jobs where the paint peels like a banana where the drywall compound is, mainly where a corner bead gets bashed. and the jobs were painted with BM arura.
i don't recommend painting new drywall without a primer
 
#18 ·
I don't have enough field experience to have developed a personal judgment on how these new products perform on new drywall.

Actually, the only time I used Emerald on new work, it was primed white and finished with two coats of dark red, and dark green in another area. I was very happy with the results.

I have also tried them or previously painted drywall with extreme color change and been happy with (surprised even) at the results.


I'm interested in hearing reviews from others (good or bad) on these products. This is where the industry as a whole is at right now. Manufactures are telling us there new products will do X, and we have to decide for ourselves if this supposed improvement is valid, or not.

There seems to be a vague misconception that the box stores are telling people not to prime, and a 'real paint store' will set them strait and sell them some primer. When in fact most modern systems make similar claims for there new technology.
 
#19 ·
i find the new paints to have alot better coverage over extreme color changes and alot of the time with light colours you question if you should even put a second coat on.
but as for as actually priming the surface i think they are still far off.
like others have stated why use expensive paint to prime? and i totally agree! here locally a decent primer runs around $18-30 a gallon and a high quality paint $50-70 a gallon.
 
#24 ·
Ric I totally agree if you don't keep up with the changes in your trade you will be left behind. That is why I stated I have used some of these products, unfortunately with dismal results. Now let me say upfront these were not high end paints, they would be considered low and medium end. I cannot talk a customer into $60 or $70 a gallon for paint when I don't know what to expect. And yes I agree most of the fault lies with the paint companies for putting out bad and sometimes mis-leading info. I think the reason for the "gimmick" feeling is all info on these products seems geared toward the HO and none toward the painter. This post is a great example 2 stores with the same company and totally opposite view points if they can't decide how, then how can we.
I am old enough to have been around when latex paint came into being and then it was horrible, look where it is now. This may happen to the all-in ones also but right now I think they have a long way to go to build the confidence level. One thing I have always asked myself is would I use it in my house, and at this point the answer is no.
And please Ric don't be done I feel there are things to be learned in a discussion like this.
 
#25 ·
It is important, as Ric points out for all applicators and end users of products to keep up with industry trends and improvements. The marketing hype gets in the way sometimes, although it confuses more than it provides information. As Toolseeker says, paint technology has come a long way over the years.
 
#27 ·
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but i am dying to know how this turned out. If the op had some success without primer, I would love to hear about it. I do know that bare sheetrock is like a sponge, but that is precisely why I think it may be one of the few instances where you could get away without primer. The first coat is maybe going to bond a little better because it has something to adhere to in the paper fibres.

I know that primer becomes more important as the smoothness increases on the surface to be painted.

As for primerless paints, I can only comment on the DTM or direct to metal paints. They do NOT adhere anywhere near as well to metal as a proper primer will. The manufacturers chemists may argue the point, but I have direct experience that shows the opposite.

As far as the op is concerned, I just don't think they can provide a high-solid paint with the viscosity needed to bond to a porous surface as well as a primer. In other words, my prediction is that the higher quality the paint, the LESS it will work as a primer.
 
#32 ·
a bashed corner bead is a paint problem when the corner gets hit and then the paint peels the whole 10-12" wide and 8' high where the drywall compound is. i've had to deal with it on a number of jobs. the paint soaks into the drywall but not the drywall compund. its to smooth and hard for just paint to soak into. prime your bare drywall people. do what you know works.
 
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