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Old 03-20-2012, 05:57 PM   #31
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Shadows on my new paint job


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Originally Posted by Mr. Paint View Post
Just one thing: If your patch doesn't match the surface profile, it will always show, regardless of coats of primer and paint. Prime the offending area now, let it dry and see if it shows. Like the first comment made, maybe it needs sanded...
That's exactly right Mr. Paint. That would be a texture flash. When you apply joint compound to a wall, you alter the texture so that the patched area differs in texture, surface profile, from the surrounding area, and it reflects light differently. There is nothing that can be done to eliminate that. Painting is partly about playing tricks with light, but that's one trick it won't fall for. Even with a flat, in the right lighting situation it'll trip you up. We've had this discussion here a couple of times, and the possible solutions to overcome it are entertaining, though fruitless, they are fun to watch.

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Old 03-20-2012, 06:24 PM   #32
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I could be dead wrong - I have been before, but I do believe there are some manufacturers out there that have probably done that very thing - relabeled an existing coating and called it Paint & Prime in One, without any reformulation at all...I don't think so with Sherwin Williams though, and here's why - While Sherwin has been as guilty as any manufacturer in using a little license when extolling the benefits of their products (e.g lifetime warranty, etc.), they are also regarded as on of the true industry leaders when it comes to innovative product design and push/pulling themselves, and others, to accommodate new and developing trends within this industry. I think they would have more to lose than gain by pulling off such an easily identified and bone-headed marketing stunt. Plus, they've already introduced this technology in their Dutch Boy line (perhaps other SW brands too), which I believe to be a different formulation than other DB products - so they've had some field testing and results from this new idea...

Check out the following link from the Rhom & Haas Paint Quality Institute:

http://www.paintquality.com/paint-pr...newsletter.pdf

In this article Rhom & Haas, one of the world's largest resin producers, have addressed this new paint/marketing "sensation". Not only do they speak of the difference in formulation, they address the apparent success of at least some of the products labeled as P&P, then forecast the future role of P&Ps...Interesting.

What surprises me more than anything is the lack of info and education, from all participating manufacturers, to their employees and their customers as to why (and how) they have placed such a confidence in a system that seems to be antagonistic to conventional thought (just as in the case that you've described with the SW manager).
ric, your words on this thread are well thought, written, and to the point. Good job, you're a valuable contributor here.
I've been harping on this P&P as well, as many of you know. I'm old school, but I'm open to technological advances. I've never totally believed that it's pure marketing hype, a sham product. I've used it a few times, Behr and BM Aura, both over bare drywall with great results. And I've experimented with SW Duration on bare wood outside, results not yet determined, coming this spring. I would never risk something so blatant if I didn't have some faith in their word.
I don't doubt that the technology is possible, and I, like you, don't believe that a rational company, even Behr, would gamble with that much liability and reputational damage. It would be devastating. There has to be something there. That said.
My biggest problem with the whole thing, as you stated, is the lack of education, especially to the contractors. The focus of an article I wrote Paint vs. Primer , was the homeowner/DIY. That market segment is unaware of the multitude of available primers, their wide range of purposes, and which situation calls for which primer. Primers are an entire subject area, yet the homeowner thinks primer is a primer is a primer, and they could easily be led into thinking the primer in the can will be sufficient for their needs. I hammer anybody I can get access to in the paint cos about this. IMO, merits of the products aside, they did an extremely poor job of rolling it out and the whole marketing campaign, pr strategy, was a failure. The fact that we've been, as pros, debating it this long is the proof.
Thanks for the article, I'll read it with great interest.

The article, now read, was exactly what I was looking for, real tested examples. Nice.

Last edited by jsheridan; 03-20-2012 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:05 AM   #33
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We've had this discussion here a couple of times, and the possible solutions to overcome it are entertaining, though fruitless, they are fun to watch.

i hate you... lol, jk!


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* Now I spray the orange-peel texture on, feathering-out a quick spiral.


Faron


i should have bought some of this stuff for my last project! it's funny how a little spot covering can turn into an entire 3x3 foot area to blend correctly

so basically after getting a good looking ceiling painted on the 3rd try... i accidently got a bright white 3D blotch of primer on the ceiling, next to the crown. SOB! so i went to whip it, BIG mistake! not only did i alter the fine texture, I continued to whip reducing the white pigment. i was left with a 3" grey spot... i should have left the damn spot alone, then come back and gently sand or scrape away the botch. yea, i'm learning real fast!!

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Old 03-22-2012, 02:33 PM   #34
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Yeah...regarding the texture-spray-

If your orange-peel texture is small, run the can under hot water for a minute! This is stated on the can, but "what GUY" reads directions...LOL!

I had the little dial turned all the way to "Fine", but droplets were still a tad too big. Then I remembered seeing this tip on the can.
Worked like a charm!!!
Droplets came out a lot smaller.

Some of the "bursts" I use are maybe a half-second....some may be 3-5 seconds if feathering-out over more spots/bigger area.

But again...I use the "tight spiral" outward pattern. Just barely move your hand/wrist, but make a quick spiral. Have your "spiral' going JUST b4 pulling the trigger.

DON'T use Left-to-Right patterns! If part of the overlap gets too heavy, the eye will pick up these slight "linear" differences. Your eye will never see it in a curved/spiral pattern.

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Old 03-22-2012, 03:48 PM   #35
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unfortunately i notice and see everything... it's a SIN i tell you!!

i've done this cover up in phases so far... i used a 3" felt roller, then went back and added extra stipple with a brush. i checked on it this morning and from certain angles you don't see it. you only see the variation when it's back lit at night with the can lights ON in the kitchen. so i'm really tempted to just leave it, because it would be rare to only have half the lights on in the back room.
my other option is to go back over the 1x1 area with my 18" roller, a quick small blend, but i fear messing with it will only make things worse

i don't think buying a $14 can for my blotch would work out to well, at this point i'll leave it or roll it one more time. cool stuff though, just saw it at Lowe's on my break.
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Old 04-05-2012, 09:42 PM   #36
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Does it seem like 25yrs ago latex paint covered better than it does now.. I think so.....
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:09 AM   #37
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It needs another coat or two.

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Painters and Decorators in Catford

Last edited by rimce; 04-14-2012 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:01 AM   #38
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The paint and primer in one works when the whole surface is already painted or all completely bare, the first coat "primes" and the 2nd coat finishes (I know some people swear it's no good, but I've used a couple times and actually like it). Wall repairs always need to be spot primed and then painted separately. Good idea is to stipple the primer on the repairs with the tip of your brush, leaving a slightly bumpy surface, to build up the area's thickness and add some orange peel-type look and feel to match the rest of the drywall. If you don't, the repair spots will show because the paint isn't as think there, leaving the area with a thinner coating of material, causing light to reflect differently.
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:01 AM   #39
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The paint and primer in one works when the whole surface is already painted or all completely bare, the first coat "primes" and the 2nd coat finishes (I know some people swear it's no good, but I've used a couple times and actually like it). Wall repairs always need to be spot primed and then painted separately. Good idea is to stipple the primer on the repairs with the tip of your brush, leaving a slightly bumpy surface, to build up the area's thickness and add some orange peel-type look and feel to match the rest of the drywall. If you don't, the repair spots will show because the paint isn't as think there, leaving the area with a thinner coating of material, causing light to reflect differently.

ANY paint will do the same thing, Paint and primer in the same can is nothing but marketing hype that HO's buy

http://buildipedia.com/at-home/painting/paint-vs-primer
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:50 PM   #40
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ANY paint will do the same thing, Paint and primer in the same can is nothing but marketing hype that HO's buy

http://buildipedia.com/at-home/painting/paint-vs-primer
You keep saying that, and yet it's out there and it works. The reason why you're wrong here is simple. A "paint and primer in one" will not stipple out a flat spot, or dull down a shiny spot, aka wall repairs, like a regular primer will because it levels and covers like a paint. Regular paints on bare surfaces can take 3-4 coats. This "paint and primer in one" technology assures you that you will only need 2 coats on bare surfaces, it doesn't advertise that you're supposed to use it as a spot primer, I'm not sure why some people swear there is "no such thing" when clearly there is. I like the argument about being a marketing ploy for homeowners. Are professional painters not also homeowners? Using your theory I could also say all paints are the same, there's no such thing as a premium paint, so just buy the cheapest one, its just paint. But you know that's not true. The difference is in the solids and additives. So why can't the solids and additives also make some paints better self-primers?
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Old 04-21-2012, 03:45 AM   #41
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You keep saying that, and yet it's out there and it works. The reason why you're wrong here is simple. A "paint and primer in one" will not stipple out a flat spot, or dull down a shiny spot, aka wall repairs, like a regular primer will because it levels and covers like a paint. Regular paints on bare surfaces can take 3-4 coats. This "paint and primer in one" technology assures you that you will only need 2 coats on bare surfaces, it doesn't advertise that you're supposed to use it as a spot primer, I'm not sure why some people swear there is "no such thing" when clearly there is. I like the argument about being a marketing ploy for homeowners. Are professional painters not also homeowners? Using your theory I could also say all paints are the same, there's no such thing as a premium paint, so just buy the cheapest one, its just paint. But you know that's not true. The difference is in the solids and additives. So why can't the solids and additives also make some paints better self-primers?

what ever
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Old 04-21-2012, 07:30 AM   #42
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http://buildipedia.com/at-home/painting/paint-vs-primer
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:53 AM   #43
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I kind of got off track arguing with a couple of the guys on here, but I do know there's a difference between a real "primer" and a "paint and primer in one". I think the "paint & primer in one" is really just better self-priming paint (vs older latex paint), because the technology has improved.

I'm adding this in now because I don't want DIY'ers on here looking for advice to see my in-jest argument posts and think there's a legitimate argument out there saying that self-priming paint is a substitute for using a primer when a real primer is needed. I do think there are circumstances when this type of paint will do a great job, but there are just as many, if not more, situations when a real primer is needed, and this post started with a situation where a real primer was clearly needed.


Last edited by pucks101; 05-28-2012 at 09:55 PM. Reason: clarification
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