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Old 03-17-2012, 04:39 PM   #16
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Shadows on my new paint job


Now would be a good time for REAL paint companies to take advantage of this ridiculous paint-and-primer-in-one fiasco & market REAL primer and then paint to get a quality looking paint job. Selling separate primer and paint is surely more lucrative to a paintstore than the joke of P & P in one. I don't get it.

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Old 03-17-2012, 05:41 PM   #17
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A person learns by asking questions. There are no stupid questions here
If you are reacting to my comment to Mustang Mike? I suspect he spotted that I was joking.
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Old 03-17-2012, 05:51 PM   #18
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If you are reacting to my comment to Mustang Mike? I suspect he spotted that I was joking.
For sure. I can detect sarcasm as well as I can dish it out.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:37 PM   #19
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LOL, I thought you were talking to me! Anyway, I should have done that research myself, cuz I did question that, but didn't check further. I learned a lesson, and won't be suckered again! I had talked to the clark kensington guy at the store, when I went to Ace hardware, and he said always use a good regular primer over repairs, before you do any paint with primer. The primer with the paint, just helps the paint to adhere better, and covers better. Always start out with a good primer, say in a new house he said. Thankyou everyone!
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Old 03-18-2012, 04:33 AM   #20
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"Self-priming" means it will effectively seal a patch on the first coat and not be visible after the second coat. And ltd had it right, you will not be able to touch up with eggshell and not have it be noticeable. You'll simply exchange one defect for another. I'm curious why you would choose eggshell for a finish given the house is on the market. Eggshell will highlight more natural irregularities in drywall creating shadows and throwing light, all of which draw your eye. IMO, flat would be have been the better choice.
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:27 AM   #21
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I'm curious why you would choose eggshell for a finish given the house is on the market. Eggshell will highlight more natural irregularities in drywall creating shadows and throwing light, all of which draw your eye. IMO, flat would be have been the better choice.
That must be a bit of a regional thing. I'm not a painter, so I certainly don't see as many walls as you do, but it seems to me that I rarely (if ever) see flat paint "round these parts." Semi-gloss trim, with satin or eggshell walls. Kitchens & bathrooms almost always have semi-gloss on both walls and trim.

Interesting...
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:58 AM   #22
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"Self-priming" means it will effectively seal a patch on the first coat and not be visible after the second coat. And ltd had it right, you will not be able to touch up with eggshell and not have it be noticeable. You'll simply exchange one defect for another. I'm curious why you would choose eggshell for a finish given the house is on the market. Eggshell will highlight more natural irregularities in drywall creating shadows and throwing light, all of which draw your eye. IMO, flat would be have been the better choice.
I don't have the problem with appropriate products claiming to be "self-priming" (e.g. floor paints) that I do with any claiming to be primer and paint in one.

Also remember with higher sheen acrylic latex paints that they take 30 days to surface cure.
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:14 AM   #23
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Hey, let's be honest here, you can have SUCCESS with the all in one paints..............just not in every instance. For example, I would never, ever use it to coat new drywall. I don't think I would ever use it in a harsh exterior environment either. All that being said, sure, in a pinch I would use it where conditions are decent enough that you may not need that superior professional finish.
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Old 03-18-2012, 12:55 PM   #24
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In our area over the years, it seemed that satin became the popular sheen for bedrooms and living rooms, etc, and I remember being talked into semi-gloss for bathrooms especially, and sometimes kitchens. I never liked semi-gloss, so I did everything in satin, going back maybe up to 15 years ago. When we built our house in 1987, we used flat in the bedrooms and living room, and den. I hated that flat paint, but I did because at that time our budget was very limited and we bought a too cheap brand of paint. Lots of lessons learned over the years on paints and primers.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:03 PM   #25
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Now would be a good time for REAL paint companies to take advantage of this ridiculous paint-and-primer-in-one fiasco & market REAL primer and then paint to get a quality looking paint job. Selling separate primer and paint is surely more lucrative to a paintstore than the joke of P & P in one. I don't get it.
I am a paint purist. It's one of my many character flaws. I really don't like "gimmicky" products or marketing schemes when it comes to painting. The companies I work with have kinda the same philosophies regarding product... But, having said all that, here's the funny thing about paint manufacturers - We're really good at servicing existing markets and providing products to serve a specific or particular need...What we're not really very good at is creating demand for new products...and, as long as I'm kinda slamming manufacturers, I might as well say we're also not very innovative either.

I had to say all that to lead into this...Products that are listed as Paint and Primer in One, are not just relabeled old formulations. They are a different process and will provide better penetration, and to a degree, have a better ability to "seal" a partially porous surface without the use of a conventional primer. This "process" was actually introduced to paint manufacturers, by resin manufacturers, as a step-saving product primarily targeted to the DIY market. Does it work? Yup...sometimes. But, as you all know, it doesn't work near as well as a separate prime coat followed by a separate finish coat. So, part of this product is Marketing BS...and the other part is new technology.

As I said earlier though, as manufacturers, we're not particularly innovative or creative...and the only reason so many companies have now come out with a P&P product is because the market wants one - and they're not horribly bad products - albeit their product capabilities are sometimes over stated. Over time, they'll improve - just as Direct-to-Metal finishes have become a viable part of a company's product offerings. DTM finishes will never provide the same amount of corrosion resistance as will a 2 step prime and finish app, but they do work on properly prepared surfaces in non-extreme environments - just as P&P products will.

As a purist, and an old-schooler, I sometimes have problems with corner cutting ideas. But the market too often times seems OK with a "good enough" system instead of a "best" system.

You wonder why REAL paint manufacturer don't market a real system involving primer then finish? They've been doing that for years...think of Zinsser, Insl-X, Masterchem Industries, XIM, and others - they made their name known with their specialty primers, some have even entered the arena of finish products (with varying degree of success or acceptance). One of the companies I work with has over 30 different specific primers in their price list...and this is a tiny, tiny company.

But in today's world of limited resources, volatility of raw materials, increasing government intervention, increased liability and protection from liability, changing demands from the market, new and changing paintable surfaces and on and on, all manufacturers must shave their number of offered SKUs wherever possible. If one product will work in a number of applications, why continue with 2 or 3 add'l products that essentially, kind of do the same thing? Now couple that with a market that's saying they want less products to choose from (less confusion), and apparently are willing to compromise a little on the finished performance, is it really any surprise that a manufacturer sees this as an opportunity to kinda slay 2 dragons?

Believe me, manufacturers are just as frustrated as are those who take this business seriously. We follow demand. I work with contractors and focus groups constantly to determine the best products to take to market, that will both serve a need and return a profit to the company. Ultimately, we (all paint manufacturers) end up going with what the market tells us they are willing to buy.

Last edited by ric knows paint; 03-19-2012 at 07:12 AM.
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:48 AM   #26
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Well put, Rick. There is a tendency to play "follow the leader" in marketing products. This exaggeration only creates unrealistic expectations from consumers who never wanted to conduct proper surface preparation or cleaning in the first place. They try to apply an accent red color over a pastel prior painted surface, and are livid when it does not cover in one coat (which is explained on the product label, but they prefer the hype over the substance). Self-priming paints (usually premium products) have claimed this in product literature for some time, but not as blatantly as it is at the present time. There are several substrates where this is possible (it is still a two-coat application), but there are other circumstances where using a primer is preferred.
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:24 AM   #27
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Well put, Rick. There is a tendency to play "follow the leader" in marketing products. This exaggeration only creates unrealistic expectations from consumers who never wanted to conduct proper surface preparation or cleaning in the first place. They try to apply an accent red color over a pastel prior painted surface, and are livid when it does not cover in one coat (which is explained on the product label, but they prefer the hype over the substance). Self-priming paints (usually premium products) have claimed this in product literature for some time, but not as blatantly as it is at the present time. There are several substrates where this is possible (it is still a two-coat application), but there are other circumstances where using a primer is preferred.
So true....so true.
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:14 PM   #28
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ric knows . i agree with your post ,except that it was told to me by a s/w manager that super paint will start having on its label, paint and primer in one .he rolled his eyes and said its the same paint as always but now it says it on the label. is this true? who knows . lucky from years of experience i know when to prime and when its not necessary.but i can tell you this many of my clients buy into it hook line and sinker, when they hear that man from big orange wit his trusting voice tell you its a paint and primer in one ,witch means fewer coats i look forward to reading your posts

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Old 03-19-2012, 05:17 PM   #29
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Just one thing: If your patch doesn't match the surface profile, it will always show, regardless of coats of primer and paint. Prime the offending area now, let it dry and see if it shows. Like the first comment made, maybe it needs sanded...
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:42 AM   #30
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ric knows . i agree with your post ,except that it was told to me by a s/w manager that super paint will start having on its label, paint and primer in one .he rolled his eyes and said its the same paint as always but now it says it on the label. is this true? who knows . lucky from years of experience i know when to prime and when its not necessary.but i can tell you this many of my clients buy into it hook line and sinker, when they hear that man from big orange wit his trusting voice tell you its a paint and primer in one ,witch means fewer coats i look forward to reading your posts
I could be dead wrong - I have been before, but I do believe there are some manufacturers out there that have probably done that very thing - relabeled an existing coating and called it Paint & Prime in One, without any reformulation at all...I don't think so with Sherwin Williams though, and here's why - While Sherwin has been as guilty as any manufacturer in using a little license when extolling the benefits of their products (e.g lifetime warranty, etc.), they are also regarded as on of the true industry leaders when it comes to innovative product design and push/pulling themselves, and others, to accommodate new and developing trends within this industry. I think they would have more to lose than gain by pulling off such an easily identified and bone-headed marketing stunt. Plus, they've already introduced this technology in their Dutch Boy line (perhaps other SW brands too), which I believe to be a different formulation than other DB products - so they've had some field testing and results from this new idea...

Check out the following link from the Rhom & Haas Paint Quality Institute:

http://www.paintquality.com/paint-pr...newsletter.pdf

In this article Rhom & Haas, one of the world's largest resin producers, have addressed this new paint/marketing "sensation". Not only do they speak of the difference in formulation, they address the apparent success of at least some of the products labeled as P&P, then forecast the future role of P&Ps...Interesting.

What surprises me more than anything is the lack of info and education, from all participating manufacturers, to their employees and their customers as to why (and how) they have placed such a confidence in a system that seems to be antagonistic to conventional thought (just as in the case that you've described with the SW manager).

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