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-   -   roller pulling paint back off the wall? (http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/roller-pulling-paint-back-off-wall-170875/)

Yeti 02-03-2013 01:19 AM

roller pulling paint back off the wall?
 
Seems like in some spots the roller is pulling he paint back off of the wall. It's happening on the first coat, second coat seems to go on fine and cover. Any idea what would cause this? Paint drying too fast? The wall was primed in the morning with USG sheetrock brand primer, and painted later that night with BM Coronado superkote 5000.

chrisn 02-03-2013 04:58 AM

How long does it say to dry( the primer?)

Sounds like an application problem to me, you are over working the finish paint. Roll it on heavy( 1/2 in nap), maybe 14 in strip and let it alone.

joecaption 02-03-2013 06:01 AM

Is this is bare drywall that's never been painted before, my guess would be the walls still had drywall compound dust on them so the primer never bonded.

jsheridan 02-03-2013 06:59 AM

If only the first coat is pulling off, and the primer is exposed, Chrisn is right.
If it's pulling the primer too, and the rock is exposed, Joecaption, ugh, is right.:laughing:

When you roll the second coat on it reactivates the first coat to a degree, and if you overwork it or apply too much pressure the first coat could pull away.

Yeti 02-03-2013 08:28 AM

The wall was previously painted but needed a few patches so I just primed the whole wall. The primer isn't pulling off thank god, just the paint. I had a similar problem on another wall that I spot primed, it was like the first coat of paint didn't want to stick well on any of the patches. You could see everywhere i patched and it looked as though i missed the spot with the roller completely. This now makes me think it's an issue with the primer. I generally shop at BM, do they have a good drywall primer?

b679995 02-05-2013 07:27 AM

Were the patches Primed after sanding?
 
I used some patching material a customer brought me once that did the same thing, Still don't know what caused it but learned to use proper patching material after that Fiasco !

ric knows paint 02-05-2013 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeti (Post 1108468)
The wall was previously painted but needed a few patches so I just primed the whole wall. The primer isn't pulling off thank god, just the paint. I had a similar problem on another wall that I spot primed, it was like the first coat of paint didn't want to stick well on any of the patches. You could see everywhere i patched and it looked as though i missed the spot with the roller completely. This now makes me think it's an issue with the primer. I generally shop at BM, do they have a good drywall primer?

I'm not sure we have enough info to either identify the problem, and to make a better recommendation...You mentioned in your first post that "the roller is pulling the paint back off the wall..." How do you know this? Do you actually see the paint lifting from the surface as you roll back over it? If that's the case, there are 2 distinct probabilities as to why...(1) technique - rolling back over the freshly applied paint after it has had enough time to start to "set up". If you're going to roll over a freshly applied film, do so while the paint is still wet - not after it's had a few (or several) minutes to dry. (2) If you can see the product "lifting" from the surface as you roll over it (and not because of what's described in #1), that is a tell-tale sign of a cheap roller cover. Believe it or not, there is a lot of science that actually goes into the design and performance of roller covers. If you watch a slow, and magnified, application of paint by roller, you'll see the fabric tries to pick the paint back off the wall after it just lays it down...a good fabric holds the material for application, but releases it without add'l pick up of film once applied. An inexpensive fabric, by design or inherent property of the fabric, may hold paint fine for application - but then lift it back from the surface as it's rolled back over a freshly applied surface. AND, that's going to be a more frequent experience with all the new blends of resins...

OK, so lets say it isn't any of that...I asked you how you knew it was pulling the paint back off the wall - you later spoke of this happening before when you spot primed a wall and and "it looked as though i missed the spot with the roller completely" - That kinda describes flashing, more so than what was described earlier. Now, if that's the case (in both situations), that leads back to the primer. Few companies know more about drywall (wallboard, sheetrock, whatever...) than USG...and now USG has become a paint manufacturer - of sorts. It seems with their knowledge and expertise of wallboard, it'd be a natural for them to deliver the best primer for their own manufactured product. Right?

USG's primers aren't exactly the same as primers made by paint companies... they are different - and USG makes that claim in their printed data. While most primers (as manufactured by paint companies) are designed to seal, and therefore,limit a surface's porosity (thereby not allowing the surface to absorb all the vehicle out of newly applied paint)...(and thereby leaving a paint film with partially unbound solids - which is not a good paint foundation)...USG's primers are designed to level the porosity of the entire surface to be painted. Sound the same? It's not. Paint companies primers seal a surface to limit porosity and minimize flashing, USG's products actually promote flashing - but on a more uniform and continual basis, since the entire surface "primed" with USG is of equal porosity. Did that make sense?

Of equal concern is that Calcium Carbonate is the primary filler for USG's primers (read previous posts as to what problems may occur with calcium carbonate laden products). The USG product is kinda sorta like a poor man's skim coat, but by roller instead of trowel...and there's very few painters in this here forum that'll not recommend priming a skim coated surface prior to painting (but not with the same thing used to skim with)...

There are many, many good primer/sealers out there. USG's product is not a terrible product, it's just necessary to know what it actually is, and does - a paint store (as opposed to a box store) should've been able to walk you through this experience with the proper primers, tools and finish for your app.

I hope there's something in all this rambling that is helpful to you. Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

Yeti 02-05-2013 09:27 AM

The paint was definitely being pulled back off the wall. I believe what you stated is correct, I was rolling onto a surface that had already started to dry. I did my cut ins with a brush, then immediately rolled with a 4" roller as close to the cut lines as possible. I then went on to grabbing the 9" and started laying out the wall. Once I had the same problem on different days on different walls where I had spot primed I started looking closely when I was rolling and I could see that when I went back over an area that was completely covered with paint the paint was being pulled back off the wall. I was using an Aura 1/2" nap from BM. The problem was solved with the second coat and you would never know there was an issue, I was just curious what I was doing wrong. So I'm assuming there is a better product out there for doing the spot repairs and leave the USG primer for bare drywall and mud? I've heard guys say they use flat ceiling paint to act as a primer for spot repair, or is something like Bullseye 123 a better option? Thanks fror all the replies and info. Trying to learn all that I can so I can achieve the most professional results!

ric knows paint 02-05-2013 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeti (Post 1110055)
The paint was definitely being pulled back off the wall. I believe what you stated is correct, I was rolling onto a surface that had already started to dry. I did my cut ins with a brush, then immediately rolled with a 4" roller as close to the cut lines as possible. I then went on to grabbing the 9" and started laying out the wall. Once I had the same problem on different days on different walls where I had spot primed I started looking closely when I was rolling and I could see that when I went back over an area that was completely covered with paint the paint was being pulled back off the wall. I was using an Aura 1/2" nap from BM. The problem was solved with the second coat and you would never know there was an issue, I was just curious what I was doing wrong. So I'm assuming there is a better product out there for doing the spot repairs and leave the USG primer for bare drywall and mud? I've heard guys say they use flat ceiling paint to act as a primer for spot repair, or is something like Bullseye 123 a better option? Thanks fror all the replies and info. Trying to learn all that I can so I can achieve the most professional results!

Hey Yeti,

Personally, I wouldn't use ceiling paint to spot prime anything - it's not a primer. It's not that it won't necessarily work (it might) - but you said you wanted the most professional results - and you won't achieve that by using the wrong products and tools.

If you're going to try and prime speckled areas, you want something that's going to seal the surface AND provide good foundation for all subsequent coats of finish paint. BullsEye 123 is a much better option (and is not terribly expensive).

Yeti 02-05-2013 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric knows paint (Post 1110088)
Hey Yeti,

Personally, I wouldn't use ceiling paint to spot prime anything - it's not a primer. It's not that it won't necessarily work (it might) - but you said you wanted the most professional results - and you won't achieve that by using the wrong products and tools.

If you're going to try and prime speckled areas, you want something that's going to seal the surface AND provide good foundation for all subsequent coats of finish paint. BullsEye 123 is a much better option (and is not terribly expensive).

Thanks. I'll definitely be picking some of that up. I have a bedroom to paint that needs some repair, this will be a good test.

ToolSeeker 02-05-2013 04:30 PM

Ric I have a question, first let me say I have never used the USG primer. After reading what you posted about the sealing properties my question is how would this difference work on a already painted surface?

ric knows paint 02-05-2013 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToolSeeker (Post 1110335)
Ric I have a question, first let me say I have never used the USG primer. After reading what you posted about the sealing properties my question is how would this difference work on a already painted surface?

Hey TS...

Are you asking if USG could be used on a painted surface instead of on bare drywall? If so, yes - but... Similar to most paints, USG's primers contain both a resin and pigment (as well as evaporative solvent). The resin (binder) is a vinyl acrylic and will work fine on both painted and bare drywall. Again, what's different is the pigment structure - with USG, the primary pigment (they describe it as "filler") is calcium carbonate - Paint manufacturers will use calcium carbonate as an extender pigment, but never as the primary. There are many reasons for this - Calcium is a soft, absorbent, large, irregularly shaped flake that protrudes through a paint film - so not only does it absorb a great deal of binder, it also leaves a film that is very absorbent and sucks the very resin from the finish paint as it's applied. Calcium also subjects the film to extreme burnishing which makes for a pretty soft foundation.

Now couple all that with the fact that calcium has been known to create some pretty funky staining issues in finish paints - that, then makes it just not all that worth using in a repaint situation.

Now, realistically speaking, a lot has to happen in the cosmos for the staining issue to actually manifest. So, forget that - but you still have the issue of a very soft and absorbent primer film that is supposed to support all the wonderful characteristics of a fine finish product (characteristics being washability, stain resistance, burnish resisting, etc.). The only way the traits of a good finish product can be realized is if it's applied over a sealed, and reasonably hard, foundation.

Whew! I sure hope that was the question you were asking.

chrisn 02-06-2013 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric knows paint (Post 1110627)
Hey TS...

Are you asking if USG could be used on a painted surface instead of on bare drywall? If so, yes - but... Similar to most paints, USG's primers contain both a resin and pigment (as well as evaporative solvent). The resin (binder) is a vinyl acrylic and will work fine on both painted and bare drywall. Again, what's different is the pigment structure - with USG, the primary pigment (they describe it as "filler") is calcium carbonate - Paint manufacturers will use calcium carbonate as an extender pigment, but never as the primary. There are many reasons for this - Calcium is a soft, absorbent, large, irregularly shaped flake that protrudes through a paint film - so not only does it absorb a great deal of binder, it also leaves a film that is very absorbent and sucks the very resin from the finish paint as it's applied. Calcium also subjects the film to extreme burnishing which makes for a pretty soft foundation.

Now couple all that with the fact that calcium has been known to create some pretty funky staining issues in finish paints - that, then makes it just not all that worth using in a repaint situation.

Now, realistically speaking, a lot has to happen in the cosmos for the staining issue to actually manifest. So, forget that - but you still have the issue of a very soft and absorbent primer film that is supposed to support all the wonderful characteristics of a fine finish product (characteristics being washability, stain resistance, burnish resisting, etc.). The only way the traits of a good finish product can be realized is if it's applied over a sealed, and reasonably hard, foundation.

Whew! I sure hope that was the question you were asking.


not a good idea would have been quicker:wink:


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