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Andee77 06-01-2012 05:02 PM

Rhino Shield - Anyone experienced with this ceramic coating for siding
 
I was hoping to hear some good advise from some of experts in painting and siding professionals.

We have bad case of surface issue with vertical cedar siding.

House is about 26 years old and somehow painting had peeling issue ever since it was built. When we bought the house about 10 years ago, we thought good paint job will take care the issue and hired the paint company to paint the entire house.

But we hired wrong people with wrong knowledge. Ever since new paint job, it was not a paper thin peeling on spots, it became thick alligator cracking and did not even survived 1 year to show issues. It was not spots, the entire surface starting having issues.

We want to save our current siding if we can, but cost to good paint job can cost equal or close to replacing with hardie because we are looking to strip entire house and understand labor and cost of chemical involved.

We just heard about Rhino Shield using ceremic coating and thought we get estimates and see if they can fix our issue.

I was told, Rhino Shield is 61% ceremic material vs regular paint only 20%.
Having higher ceremic material in the paint pretects siding from UV along with mold and mildew. Also, this paint has elastic substance that it will with stand hot or cold weather.

They will gurantee 25years.

It is too good to be true if they will perform as they say and I want to learn if anyone who have used this product and can share any of their experience.

It will help us in decision making.

gregzoll 06-01-2012 06:13 PM

Probably the same stuff they use for pickup bed coating. Mythbusters did a Plausible, in that Rhino coating will protect a structure from a bomb going off, with no damage.

poppameth 06-02-2012 05:58 AM

I wouldn't say you hired the wrong people. You are blaming the painter without knowing what the issue is. It sounds like they put a more than adequate coating on if it's thick enough to alligator. If you are having massive problems with it peeling down to bare wood then the problem isn't the paint job. It's the house itself. You have moisture issues that need to be addressed. You may very well be better off replacing the siding and making sure any moisture issues within the structure are addressed. And make sure the new siding is back primed.

As for Rhino Shield, it sounds like a load of garbage to me.

For one, regular paint is clay based, not ceramic. So 61% vs. 20% is just pulling numbers out of nowhere. Ceramic bead in a paint does not offer any better protections from UV or mold and mildew. It provides some reflective value to help bounce heat back from the house and it's also less prone to picking up dirt and staining. Many of these paints have an elastomeric compound in them which bridges hairline cracks and provides a rubbery flexible coating. If you have moisture issues this is the last thing you want. Instead of peeling you'll get large bubbles full of water developing on the house.

I'm willing to bet their warranty has quite a few loopholes they can use to void it.

I haven't used Rhino Shield but we deal with many similar products and none of them would make the claims this company is making.

ric knows paint 06-02-2012 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andee77 (Post 934036)
I was hoping to hear some good advise from some of experts in painting and siding professionals.

We have bad case of surface issue with vertical cedar siding.

House is about 26 years old and somehow painting had peeling issue ever since it was built. When we bought the house about 10 years ago, we thought good paint job will take care the issue and hired the paint company to paint the entire house.

But we hired wrong people with wrong knowledge. Ever since new paint job, it was not a paper thin peeling on spots, it became thick alligator cracking and did not even survived 1 year to show issues. It was not spots, the entire surface starting having issues.

We want to save our current siding if we can, but cost to good paint job can cost equal or close to replacing with hardie because we are looking to strip entire house and understand labor and cost of chemical involved.

We just heard about Rhino Shield using ceremic coating and thought we get estimates and see if they can fix our issue.

I was told, Rhino Shield is 61% ceremic material vs regular paint only 20%.
Having higher ceremic material in the paint pretects siding from UV along with mold and mildew. Also, this paint has elastic substance that it will with stand hot or cold weather.

They will gurantee 25years.

It is too good to be true if they will perform as they say and I want to learn if anyone who have used this product and can share any of their experience.

It will help us in decision making.

Hi Andee...

Rhino Shield makes some pretty good products that are capable of performing in a similar manner to the bold claims made by their advertisements - and it sounds like you came away with a pretty good understanding of the product and why it differs from more conventional house paints. Their claims aren't completely unlike those "lifetime" warranties from national paint manufacturers, and the construction of such products seem to pretty similar to the construction of Rhino Shield. The primary difference seems to be the ceramic component.

Many of the so-called "lifetime" warranted products are dual resin products consisting of both a conventional solid acrylic, plus a "plasticized" (for lack of a better term) resin that may also be a solid acrylic or a acrylic/vinyl acrylic blend (doesn't matter). This second resin component is what gives the product elastomeric properties as it is able to bridge surface cracks and provide add'l waterproofing from wind-driven rains. By itself, that is not necessarily a good or bad thing. These products, when compared to more conventional exterior paints, have an uncanny ability to expand (elongate - sometimes up to 300%) then return to it's original shape and size as the surface contracts - all without film breakage...and all that sounds good, and it can be, but if your home is expanding and contracting to that extent, I think you've got far larger issues with moisture than what any paint type coating can be realistically expected to cure.

Second, Rhino Shield is applied at a Dry Film Thickness 8 - 9 times greater than conventional house paints. Again, by itself, is neither a good nor bad thing. Proper film thickness absolutely plays a role in the lifespan of any coating - but if you have moisture issues that could possible cause an exterior film to expand to the levels that an elastomeric is capable of, I'm not convinced those moisture vapors could pass through approximately 16 - 18 mils of DFT without creating some gargantuan blisters and ultimate peeling (as Pappameth described) - regardless what their advertisements claim.

Third, ceramic microspheres are what separates this particular product from other "lifetime" warranted products - and Ceramics offer some pretty nifty benefits to any paint film. I don't completely understand the statement that "Rhino Shield is 61% ceremic material vs regular paint only 20%"...unless they're saying that ceramic is 61% of the product's solid make up - which couldn't be 'cause 20% of regular paint (and I'm assuming they mean resin) wouldn't be able to bind that much dry component. Ceramic microspheres benefit paint products as they don't absorb binder (resin) as other pigments will - so, more binder actually makes it to the surface to serve as the coating's adhesive (while it is true that some paints contain actual clay as a "filler" or "secondary" pigment - regular paints are NOT clay based - there are many reasons clay, and other similar absorbent resins are used in the make-up of paint).

By itself, ceramic doesn't really inhibit, or prevent mold or mildew. The addition of a ceramic element eliminates, or reduces the components that may contribute to mold and mildew growth in other, more conventional coatings (again, such as clay). Ceramic will help protect the coating from harmful UV rays as it will definitely deflect heat from the surface...the heat transferring properties of ceramics have been used for years to protect surfaces from damage due to heat (think ceramic pottery, ceramic lined smoke stacks, etc.).

It's important to state that these are not true elastomeric products - they simply have an elastomeric element to them. There are other certain disadvantages of elastomerics (in general), including reduced microporosity and higher thermoplasticity that may result in either negative vapor transmission (as mentioned earlier) - (although, with Rhino Shield that's addressed by the use of their specific primer), and dirt retention, or both.

Bottom line is, Rhino Shield is a very good product capable of lasting 25 years or longer - but then, so are today's conventional house paints. I'd never want to recommend a system like Rhino Shield or premium quality house paint, as a means of correcting structural problems within a home. Correct those first to fully realize the coatings full potential for protecting your home.

...and finally (thank God), Even though I don't have all the particulars and facts, I wouldn't be so quick to forgive the painters that applied the last coating. Alligator checking can be caused by several things, and moisture is not always the cause, but what can always be included as a factor when determining the definitive reason for this paint condition is incomplete surface prep and/or improper application of product.

I'm sorry this is so long winded - good luck to you.

CoatingsGuy 06-04-2012 09:27 AM

Ceramics is not the answer and a bad idea unless you want to coat the bed of your truck. Ceramics are brittle
and conduct heat just like a ceramic coffee mug. Also be aware of long term warranties from a company that
doesn't even manufacture their own products. The ceramic paint they sell is exactly what you can buy yourself
over the counter. The warranty for 25 years is not on labor either. If you want a high performance coating
option look at some others before deciding and ask all of them to send you a copy of their warranty before you
sign. CHIC Liquid Vinyl, All-Weather Coatings, Tex-Cote, those are the biggest and I know at least two of them
manufacture their own materials.

Will22 06-04-2012 02:30 PM

Read the claims on the web about this product.

ric knows paint 06-04-2012 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoatingsGuy (Post 935947)
Ceramics is not the answer and a bad idea unless you want to coat the bed of your truck. Ceramics are brittle
and conduct heat just like a ceramic coffee mug. Also be aware of long term warranties from a company that
doesn't even manufacture their own products. The ceramic paint they sell is exactly what you can buy yourself
over the counter. The warranty for 25 years is not on labor either. If you want a high performance coating
option look at some others before deciding and ask all of them to send you a copy of their warranty before you
sign. CHIC Liquid Vinyl, All-Weather Coatings, Tex-Cote, those are the biggest and I know at least two of them
manufacture their own materials.

Hiya CG..

I can't say I agree with you about the use of ceramic microspheres in paint to insulate a surface against the damaging effects of heat - There are many, many examples of how ceramic protects surfaces, by insulating against heat, used in many industries with exposures far beyond what the paint industry's products would ever be vulnerable to (again, think ceramic lined smoke stacks, ceramic lined heaters, NASA Space Shuttle heat panels...)

...and besides, if ceramics are so brittle, why would you want to use 'em in the bed of your truck anyway?

That's not to say other insulative components may not work as well as ceramics - and I can't say I'm really familiar with all the brands you listed above, but at least a couple of them recommend finish products with a film thickness of 40 - 50 mils, and to be applied by their own professional applicators, or by factory licensed contractors - which brings up the warranty issue. It's not really a fair insinuation you make about the warranties of a paint manufacturer...As a coatings guy, you know that manufacturers aren't going to arbitrarily warrant labor when they have no control over that labor - they'd be foolish to do so. Just as the companies you've mentioned aren't gonna hand out a blank warranty for product and labor to just any painting contractor.

...and what's the difference if a Rhino makes their own product or not? (and I don't have a clue as to whether they do or not)...Many companies farm out all types of products to other, even competitive, manufacturers. Many regional manufacturers makes products for several national manufacturers - it's a relatively common, and not completely un-wise practice. As long as the product is made to the specific standard of the company whose name appears on the label, that's really not a usable argument.

Rhino makes, or maybe I should say, delivers good products...and just like Rhino, I have no doubt that the products you've mentioned could perform as they claim also (still a little concerned about the 40 - 50 mils thing though).

CoatingsGuy 06-11-2012 08:50 AM

Ceramics absorb they do not reflect. What was used on the Shuttle was 100% Silica Sand and it was part of an elaborate
system of layers. Dump Silica Sand in Paint and see what happens :)
Look up Thermal Protection System (TPS) and you can read all about it.
I respect your knowledge Ric, you seem to know a lot about Paints and I enjoy your comments.

ric knows paint 06-14-2012 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoatingsGuy (Post 940855)
Ceramics absorb they do not reflect. What was used on the Shuttle was 100% Silica Sand and it was part of an elaborate
system of layers. Dump Silica Sand in Paint and see what happens :)
Look up Thermal Protection System (TPS) and you can read all about it.
I respect your knowledge Ric, you seem to know a lot about Paints and I enjoy your comments.

OK, I read about as much as I'm capable of understanding, and according to the US Centennial of Flight Commission, in an article titled "Shuttle Thermal Protection System (TPS)" written by Dwayne A. Day, both the Shuttle's LRSI and the HRSI tiles are coated with a ceramic coating that both reflects and radiates solar radiation...Also, going to Videos of Space Shuttle Ceramic Tiles, shows some pretty impressive demos of the heat resistance of ceramic coated tiles.

Now, I have no idea what any of that means other than ceramics are effective as a means to protect a surface from heat, by either radiating or reflecting, absorbing or re-directing heat away from the surface...Ceramic containing paints benefit from similar principles, albeit to a much - much lesser scale. But that's not the only benefit of ceramics to a paint film - Not only are ceramics useful in protecting a surface from heat, the addition of ceramics add a degree of structural integrity to a finish as they don't absorb resin as other pigments do...and because of their specific shape (perfect orbs), ceramic containing paint films are more "impervious" to staining and less apt to hold dirt.

Whether ceramic orbs (microshperes) are actually considered brittle, I guess depends on what it's being compared to...In other words, it's kind of relative. Ceramics, as they relate to other paint film pigments, are tough, hard and durable, and as the film dries, a practically impenetrable film is created through the coalescence of these spheres. Relatively speaking, the pigments that ceramics may have replaced in a paint film are softer, malleable and irregularly shaped - all characteristics that can take away from the integrity of a film.

MorknMindy 06-15-2012 01:42 PM

See for yourself
 
Andee77, have you tried to scrape or peel any of the 'alligator' places to see how easily the fresh paint comes off? If you got out there and at several different sites, try to peel off the new paint and it doesn`t come off easily, you can probably just get someone to paint over that and if the paint you have now isn`t over 2-3 mils thick you should be okay.

The main thing is see how tightly the present finish has adhered to the older one. That will kind of give you an idea about how much time painters will have to spend on prep work. That is THE most important part of painting. If you don`t have a good sturdy surface willing to accept the new paints adhesive properties it is a lot more work to make it that way.

I don`t know anything about Rhino paint. It sounds good just reading this thread. You might want to make sure you will be able to paint over it one day when you get to that point. If you have to sandblast the stuff off just to repaint your house then that is something else to consider.

Now about the siding, cedar is going to warp, check, crack, shrink, etc. for quite some time. I have redwood and it is pretty much the same way in severe climates anyway. 26 years should be long enough though so hopefully it has quit moving around. Like 'ric knows paint' said the paint will have to have the ability to stretch a little but most paints nowadays are fairly flexible at least for the first few years.

good luck

Andee77 06-15-2012 02:40 PM

3m Coating & decision on how to paint problem cedar siding
 
Thank you so much for your feed backs.

Mork&mindy & Ric, we did actually tested or spot painted some of cracking or peeling are with primer and latex paint. They are doing very well. Some are going into few years and there's no problem.

I wish, we have enough time to take off these cracking or peeling are to do the same. But most difficult issue with our siding is not all area is coming off and our house is slightly in hill and 3 stories high.

So, it requires some skilled people to do or will take forever to finish properly.

Some paint areas are thick and don't know thickness, but I do believe it is quite thick.

The area re primed and painted, when paint came out, it was down to barewood.
I do believe, if we can get it down to barewood, we can solve our issue.

We are working with 2 very best paint company in the area.
So, their price are not cheap, but if we don't address and deliver good job now, we can't salvage our siding is how we see the issue.

Right now, painting entire house is around $16,000 to $18,000 before tax.

If we stripe 100% of Southwest & South side, we need to add additional $10,000.

If we replace front siding where worst areas to prevent from chemical peeling, it is about $10,000 too. So, it maybe best to replace if we want to strip down 100% chemical process.

Rhino Shield is proposing $26,000 with 25years guarentee. But people in our area is fairly new with not much history or reference to proof.

I do think 3m ceremic coating will be beneficial to our house. I will ask our paint company to see if they know of this and if they can add this coating after oil primer prior to painting to help siding from issue.

MorknMindy 06-16-2012 01:16 PM

Hi Andee77,

Boy, it sure sounds like you have plenty of ways to do this. Which is good right?

I will tell you what I did to our house we have been in for 20 years and you can get an idea about how much effort you will put into do-it-yourselfing if you choose.

The house was about 24 years old when we moved in and had only been stained on the outside. The South side and Southwest side were the worst. Sort of like you have now. The first time I painted it, it took a whole summer of working on it on days off. I didn`t spend every weekend out there and our house is only one story.

Our coating too had gone in many places and only bare wood which had not been painted in several years was left. I started at the bare wood places and scraped really aggressively at the wood to get rid of its surface which by now was so dry it would no longer accept any kind of coating. It`s been my experience when the surface is that dry you are wasting your time priming and painting it because the primer adhesives won`t go deep enough into the wood to grab hold of any resin the wood contains and the primer/paint will soon (within a couple of years) free itself from the wood. So you got to scrape the heck out of it till you get down to where coatings will stick. You will recognize when you get there.

Anyway, I scraped and scraped till I figured I was to the good stuff. I removed as much caulk as would come off by aggressive methods like sticking the corner of the scraper into the bead and ripping as much off as I could. Some I used a box cutter on just cause I didn`t like it`s looks. The caulk was very old and not as good as the modern day stuff. Then I primed as I went to keep up with the scraping and cussing. Then I recaulked everything and primed the caulk. Maybe a little overkill I don`t know. All I knew was I didn`t want to have to be out there in 2 or 3 years doing all this again. I used oil based primer. KILZ.

The weather...Where I live it is like an aquarium about 7 months a year, a blast furnace 3 months a year, and pretty nice 2 months a year. Pretty nice is usually one or two days interspersed with aquarium and blast furnace. So if it is really humid when you get ready to prime wait till after lunch or so that way the moisture in the air will be as low as it is going to get all day. I did this because I used oil-based primer. Latex based you can probably get away with a greater range of weather conditions.

It all looked pretty good when I got through and most of the places that had been bare wood have stayed painted. Meaning the coating is still sticking to the wood. Some places (there`s always some right?) didn`t hold the paint so in 2 or 3 years they showed up and I just went back and scraped deeper and recoated. This area was about 5%-10% of all the bare wood I had to prep so that is pretty good I figure for a DIY.

If you do it yourself buy the best ladder you can get. Nothing feels worse than gettin up 20 feet in the air and feeling the ladder flexing and sighing because it is too flimsy and doesn`t want to be there. On a ladder you will be able to get about 7 to 10 sq ft of prep work done before you have to move it. Painting you will be able to cut a bigger swath because you don`t have to use as much force like prep work.

Do the hardest part first. If the hardest part of the house is the tallest side well do it first and if you aren`t sick enough of messing with the job that you don`t throw up when you get that side done well, it is all downhill from there. There will be a point or two where you will want to throw up but if you don`t, if you can keep your breakfast down then just keep going.

Just remember to keep the ladder tied off and solid on the ground. If your up 3 stories you can get eye bolts and screw them into the wood on either side of where you are and tie off that way. "one hand for yourself, and one for the ship" is a good philosophy.

It`s going to be time consuming and some of it is actually hard work but it sure does look good when you`re through and YOU DID IT!

If you decide to hire someone tell them you would like to see references and go look at the houses the contractor did. If he is any good his work will be good too.

Good Luck Andee77. If you do this yourself you`re going to have a lot of fun I guarantee. But you`ve got a BIG job ahead so if you get someone to do it for you don`t feel like you wimped out. The reality is sometimes it`s better to get help.

Good Luck!


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