Removing Putty From Old Windows & Glass Replacement - Painting - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Painting

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-20-2008, 10:59 PM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 4
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


I am attempting to remove 90 year old putty that is very hard to remove. Any ideas? I have even thought about breaking all of the glass that I have not already broken and replacing. Could this be more energy efficient if I got a thicker glass. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Advertisement

Coon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 07:02 AM   #2
Man of many hats
 
wrangler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 507
Rewards Points: 272
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


Unfortunately, there is not a realy easy way to remove glazing putty that has hardened after so many years. A sharp chisel and a painter's tool (often refered to as a 5 in 1) work well, but it is still tedious. Also be sure to wear gloves and eye protection as the glass will break if you get your tool inbetween the glass and the frame. Also watch for little metal triangles (called 'points') that were placed around the frame to hold the glass into place while the glazier glazed the window. These will need to come out as well. And yes, you can replace with thicker glass, though many people prefer the beauty of old glass with its flaws. 1/8" glass wont offer significantly better insulation against cold/heat but will offer better breakage protection.
Brett

Advertisement

__________________
Man of many hats
wrangler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 10:01 AM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 551
Rewards Points: 502
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


Glass of any reasonable thickness is an awful insulator. You would really need to go double-pane to make any difference.

SirWired
sirwired is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2008, 06:41 AM   #4
paper hanger and painter
 
chrisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hagerstown MD
Posts: 6,865
Rewards Points: 2,238
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


Never tried it but when I researched the same subject years ago this came up. I just used sharp chisels,heavy duty razer knife,etc


http://www.tools-plus.com/prazi-pr-9000.html
chrisn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2008, 07:01 AM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: NEPA
Posts: 557
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coon View Post
I am attempting to remove 90 year old putty that is very hard to remove. Any ideas? I have even thought about breaking all of the glass that I have not already broken and replacing. Could this be more energy efficient if I got a thicker glass. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Do not break all Your Glass!!!!!!!!
Use a heat gun, I bought mine just for the reason your talking about. Works like a champ. Replacing older glass with new glass is a bummer IMO. They do not match. Older glass will have (for lack of a better term) a wrinkle to it. New glass will be a little bit different, flatter. You might try and find a piece of older glass in a older window, cut it to fit. That is what I did. But the heat gun will work great for you. http://www.hectorshardware.biz/shop/...01&sku=339921&

Good Luck
__________________


Last edited by mark942; 10-22-2008 at 07:05 AM.
mark942 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2008, 06:34 AM   #6
paper hanger and painter
 
chrisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hagerstown MD
Posts: 6,865
Rewards Points: 2,238
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


The only time I tried a heat gun ,I broke all the panes.Must be some trick to it that I could not figure out because I have heard that from others also.
chrisn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2008, 06:59 AM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: NEPA
Posts: 557
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


I can not make comment about others. All I can say is that a heat gun has worked for me for many years now. I have had no problems with removal of putty from windows.
__________________

mark942 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2008, 11:28 AM   #8
Drywall contractor
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lilburn, GA
Posts: 2,116
Rewards Points: 1,044
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


I bought one of the Prazi "putty chasers" some years back. It works fairly well, just be careful. It will chew up the wood if you slip with it or get off track. If I recall, it requires a fairly high rpm drill also. More than the average cordless.....
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a soldier. Support our troops.
bjbatlanta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2008, 10:03 PM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,264
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisn View Post
The only time I tried a heat gun ,I broke all the panes.Must be some trick to it that I could not figure out because I have heard that from others also.
Chrisn:

The problem is that if you heat only one area of the glass, then that area wants to expand, and that cracks the cool glass that doesn't want to expand. That's the reason they set sealed units on setting blocks in the middle of the opening and then use window tape around the perimeter of the window (between the glass and the wood moldings). The soft window tape and caulk above it allows for a bit of expansion and contraction of the glass from summer heat to winter frost. When you use a heat gun, you're exposing only one small area of the glass to 250+ degree temperatures, and the resulting thermal expansion cracks the cool glass, and that crack then propogates into the hot glass too.

If you're removing putty from windows with lots of small panes in them, have a piece of 1/8 inch thick steel cut that will fit over the glass. You can then move the steel a bit one way or the other to better cover the area you're working on. The metal will protect the glass from the heat of the heat gun, and will conduct heat laterally over a larger area so that heat dissipates quickly as well. Also, the metal will be at a more uniform temperature, and hence so will the entire surface of the pane of glass, and that prevents thermal cracking.

But, it seems to me kinda dumb to be REPLACING glazing putty. Putty was used many decades ago before there were quality caulks. If I were doing this work, I would remove the old putty and replace it with a quality caulk that would last many times longer than putty.

The caulk I would choose is Kop-R-Lastic, made by the U.S.E. Hickson Company in Canada. Kop-R-Lastic is a synthetic rubber caulk which has a cohesive strength even higher than it's adhesive strength. That means it sticks to itself even better than it sticks to other materials. So, when you want to remove Kop-R-Lastic, you just get one end of the caulk started and it pulls off the window like a rubber rope.

http://www.usehickson.com/Koprlastic...ic_Guide.shtml

The U.S.E. Hickson company makes Kop-R-Lastic under licence from the Koppers Company of Australia, who in turn are a subsidiary of the Koppers Company who have their head office in the USA. U.S.E. Hickson of Canada was bought out by the Henry Company of Canada, but they are still making Kop-R-Lastic under the U.S.E Hickson name.

http://www.usehickson.com/

U.S.E. Hickson also has their own brand of caulk and sealants called "Stone Mason", and the only difference between Stone Mason Gutter and Siding Sealant and Kop-R-Lastic is that Kop-R-Lastic comes in 9 different colours, where Stone Mason Gutter and Siding Sealant only comes in white and clear. So, if you see "Stone Mason Gutter & Siding Sealant in the eavestrough aisle of Home Depot, it's exactly the same stuff as Kop-R-Lastic, only in a different tube.

I understand that Henry is a big name in the USA. I don't know if the Henry Company is planning to sell Kop-R-Lastic in the USA or not, or to sell the same stuff under a different name like U.S.E. Hickson was doing with their Stone Mason Gutter & Siding Sealant.

But, THAT is truly an excellent caulk to use for windows because it sticks and stands up as well as any other caulk, but it makes removal a breeze.

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 10-23-2008 at 10:08 PM.
Nestor_Kelebay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2008, 04:33 AM   #10
paper hanger and painter
 
chrisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hagerstown MD
Posts: 6,865
Rewards Points: 2,238
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


If you're removing putty from windows with lots of small panes in them, have a piece of 1/8 inch thick steel cut that will fit over the glass.


Thanks,I will keep that in mind.
chrisn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2008, 08:34 AM   #11
Member
 
bofusmosby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tampa Florida
Posts: 396
Rewards Points: 250
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


Well, I'm going through the same process as Coon is. I am restoring an old house, and completely restoring each and every window sash as I get to it. I am using glazing compound on mine. I understand that the caulk may last longer, but the original glazing compound lasted over 80 years, so I am confident that the glazing compound I am using will last longer than I will last. Most of my sashes have major (old) termite damage, so I am disassembling each sash to do the restoration. I have found it easier to remove the nails holding each sash together, thus taking the sash apart, making it easy to remove the glass without breaking it. It takes quite a bit of time for each one, but the finished product makes it well worth it.

Bofus
Attached Thumbnails
Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement-100_4373.jpg  

Last edited by bofusmosby; 10-24-2008 at 08:36 AM. Reason: spelling
bofusmosby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2008, 01:20 AM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,264
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


Well, if you're intent on using putty, then at least use it the best way you can:

Glazing putty is nothing more than a mixture of clay and linseed oil. Linseed oil is a "drying oil", which means it reacts with the oxygen molecules in the air to transform from a liquid into a solid.

So, before applying your putty, paint your wood sashes with raw linseed oil, allow plenty of time for it to soak in, and wipe off any excess oil from the surface of the wood that would prevent the putty from sticking well to the wood. Then, when you apply glazing putty to the wood, the linseed oil in the putty will crosslink with the linseed oil already in the wood to bond the putty firmly to the wood.

After you get your windows glazed, use an exterior oil based primer on them. The alkyd resins in the primer react with oxygen exactly the same way as linseed oil, and you will get some of that same kind of bonding between the alkyd resins in the oil based primer and the linseed oil in the glazing putty. (Ideally, it would be best to use a boiled linseed oil based primer, if you can still find it for sale anywhere.)

Anyhow, I don't have windows like you have, so I've never done this myself, but I understand why doing it this way would result in the putty sticking better to the wood, and the primer sticking better to the putty, and hopefully, that will result in a longer lasting job.

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 10-25-2008 at 01:25 AM.
Nestor_Kelebay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2008, 08:25 AM   #13
Member
 
bofusmosby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tampa Florida
Posts: 396
Rewards Points: 250
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


Nester

The first couple of windows I did, I did it with the linseed oil as described. However, I have found that for me, oil-based primer used before the glazing worked better. The primer adheres to the wood great, and so far, the glazing compound sticks and holds very well to the primer. One of the problems I had by using the linseed oil was, even after 3-4 weeks after application, when painted, the primer and paint had a tendancy to "bubble up" on the glazing compound. The can of glazing compound said to waite a week or two, so I gave it more than twice that amount of drying time, and it still lifted. I had to remove the primer and paint off the glazing compound, and waite over a month before re-applying primer and paint. I am having to do about 30 of these windows (a long and slow process), so I guess that time will tell. I am sure to make notations in my journal about the methods that are used for each window, so if and when there is a failure, I'll know what not to do.
bofusmosby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2009, 11:48 AM   #14
Heritage Restoration
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 73
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


Bumping an old thread to clarify some mis-information.

First off.

There is no product in existence today that can replace Traditional Glazing Putty.
The material is designed to be a flexible bond between 2 very dissimilar material for many many many years.
Now you may say that Caulking does just that....sure....maybe for 10 years if you're lucky. Then it has to be replaced after it fails horribly.

Now I know of a building in the Eastern seaboard that has the ORIGINAL putty still intact since the 1640's.
The key is that putty needs new oil added to it ever 5-7 years to keep it flexible. If that is done...there is no reason that putty won't last 1000 years.
It is a fact that the Nixon family (yes...THAT Nixon) home has records of the window glazing putty being re-oiled every 5 years for the last 300 years. It is still in near-new condition. And that's afters centuries of rain and winters being thrown at it.

I don't know of a SINGLE Caulk-type product that can boast a track record even close to that.

Now Real glazing putty is a mixture of high calcite Lime and Boiled Linseed oil (higher grade the better). It is NOT Clay.
The higher the Calcite content...the better. ie: less than 5% Magnesium content.
How it Dries and Cures are 2 very different things.
First off...the Oil is a drying oil. It Oxidizes and dries in the mix after about a week of environmental exposure.
Next is the Cure process. This happens when the Lime is exposed to the Carbon Dioxide in the air. The Lime reverts back into it's original Calcium Carbonate (Limestone) form in about a Year time, if it's painted with a Latex. If it is sealed with an Oil based paint. Full cure time is stretched to about 30 years.

Now you want the Putty to remain flexible to continually compensate for the 2 dissimilar materials expanding at different rates. So the longer it takes to fully cure...the better.
Hence why the 5-7 year schedule of re-applying linseed oil is such a good idea. It keeps the putty flexible for centuries.
Just paint on a layer of linseed oil right over the painted glazing surface. It will soak right in and do it's job.

Note: a little bit of a note about the wonder-material of Lime is that it's Self-Healing. If any Micro-cracks form in the lime, they heal themselves closed again. Because that micro-crack is then exposed to the air. The lime absorbs carbon-dioxide and carbonates faster and grows tiny calcium carbonate crystals to fill the crack.
There aren't any Caulk products on the market that Self-Heal.

Now. You ask how to REMOVE old putty that has finally failed after a 100 years of no-maintenance (which is why most people get rid of their heritage windows).

Simple: A little mixture of House-hold Chlorine Bleach and Raw Linseed oil.
Put it on the window glazing putty (with the window flat on a table) and let it soak in for about a day.
The Raw Linseed oil will start to work away at the oil-dried out Boiled Linseed oil and start to re-emulsify it.
The Chlorine bleach will start to attack the lime and break it down.
Then take your Roller-Chisel ....

http://www.swedepaint.ca/i/tools/rollerchisel3lg.jpg
http://www.swedepaint.ca/i/tools/rollerchisel3Blg.jpg
http://www.swedepaint.ca/i/tools/rollerchisel3Clg.jpg

... to ride on the flags of the muntin bars to cut out the old putty.
(I am not affiliated with Swede Paint...it's just the only place I know that sells the chisel)
Heating the old putty is a dangerous way of just reactivating the old linseed oil. Most people will have greater than a 30% loss rate of the glass.
Heat-Guns in general should be banned. They output far too much heat for any practical use. They destroy glass and cause the off-gassing of white lead ALL THE TIME. They are also a great way to burn your house down.
Think of this for a moment. 1000*F hot air being blown into a crack around a window architrave and igniting a pile of ant chewed saw-dust. Wood spontaneously combusts at around 575*F.
It's something stupid like 20% of all house fires in the USA are caused by heat-guns.
If I remember right. White Lead based paint turns into lead vapour around 375*F and will kill you.

Heat-Guns are BAD.

Ok. Back onto something happier. lol

Now when you put in new Glazing points (those triangle metal things holding in the glass)
Make sure you get some that are Zinc plated. The Zinc reacts with the lime and self etches the glaze points into the putty for a great bond.
Easiest way to tell if they are not marked on the package....is to look at the colour. Zinc has a slight Blue tint to it. Once you start seeing that Blue tint...you'll never miss it again.
Just like how Stainless Steel has a slight Yellow/Honey tint to it. Once you start seeing it...you Can't-Not-See-It. haha.

Regarding DAP-33. It is not an appropriate product to be using. It takes Forever to dry to a point that is good to paint. It does not have super-longterm flexibility. There are no known chemicals/solutions that will remove it. It is also about the same hardness as Portland Cement once it does cure. It is a Nightmare to try and remove it once it has dried. Plus Good Luck getting it all out without breaking the glass. It's just too hard. It is also not self healing.
The only thing that it is a good for is application ease. It goes on almost the same as Traditional Putty. BUT beyond that it fails in almost all other respects.

Regarding Caulks. They are long term flexible (5-10 years..20 if you are Super Lucky). Application is not easy and clean-up is annoying at best. They also look like crap in a any pre-1700 to 1920 era window. That sharp-cut chamfered edge is what makes the exterior character of a heritage window just pop with class IMO.

IMO nothing can replace Lime/Linseed Putty. To me it's an absolute wonder-material that has been around for the better part of 1000 years. That's the kind of track record that I'm going to trust. Not some New Fangled Product in a tube that has had "5 years of simulated use" put to it. I'll pass on that.

Last edited by Skuce; 11-02-2009 at 01:15 PM.
Skuce is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Skuce For This Useful Post:
bella_b (08-04-2012), josh1331 (06-23-2010), norkota (01-13-2012)
Old 11-02-2009, 06:58 PM   #15
paper hanger and painter
 
chrisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hagerstown MD
Posts: 6,865
Rewards Points: 2,238
Default

Removing putty from old windows & glass replacement


Wow,good info!

Where would one get the traditional putty?

Advertisement

chrisn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Double-paned window glass replacement maximizer Building & Construction 5 08-18-2008 01:06 PM
Replacement Windows-Storm Windows simon Remodeling 27 11-17-2007 06:18 PM
Flashing for New Construction Replacement Windows in Stucco House BigJimmy Building & Construction 10 11-03-2007 01:48 PM
Replacing Glass In Windows OVRMYHEAD General DIY Discussions 1 04-26-2007 07:07 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts