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Old 02-19-2012, 01:00 AM   #1
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re-painting trim - possible oil or latex


I know this question is asked a lot but i thought I would add my delema. I purchased a home (25 years old) recently with painted trim and doors. From what I can tell the trim throughout the house was originally stained and polyurethaned. The previous owners painted over the trim with many shades of white throughout the house. They did a very sloppy job leaving brush strokes and runs and now there is a lot of chipped paint and dings.

From the paint cans in the basement it looks like they used alkyd benjamin moore impervo and waterborne impervo and possibly other BM regal paints.

I haved sanded smooth many of the rooms and I would like to update all of the trim paint throughout the house. I really want a smooth (brush free) paint job. I have read many reviews about BM impervo vs SW proclassic and oil vs waterborne.

I would like to know what would be a good primer for this application, where I have unknown preexisting paint types and I want a smooth leveling. I was thinking about a oil based primer like killz, bm fresh start (not sure which one), or BIN shellac. The local paint store suggested STIX, but I can't find much about it. I was thinking about using 100% acrylic BM waterborne impervo.

I really want the durability of alkyd paint without the yellowing( white paint) and messy clean up.

Any suggestions on what I should do? Thank you

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Old 02-19-2012, 05:25 AM   #2
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re-painting trim - possible oil or latex


I would stick with the Fresh Start acrylic

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Old 02-19-2012, 08:40 AM   #3
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re-painting trim - possible oil or latex


Welcome Jwith. I've seen many instances over the years where ho's have failing paint over stained/clear coated trim due to a lack of proper prep and primer. I'm sure the sanding was fun. I would like to kind of temper your expectations regarding brush marks. If you want zero indication of brush application, you'll have to spray. You can sand the sheet out of the paint and the clear coat to reduce the existing brush marks, and with the proper finish and technique, you can minimize them but they won't be brush mark free. I hate to be a nay-sayer, but expectations have to be managed. After two decades it's still something I struggle with.
I would tend to disagree with my esteemed fellow Chrisn. While easier to work with, an acrylic primer sacrifices flow and leveling, two important charactersitics if you want a brush free look. Bm Fresh Start 024 oil will give you good adhesion and should level well enough, but that depends partly on your skill level. BIN shellac would also do much to hide the existing brush marks, give you great adhesion, and be an excellent base for your finish, but that's a difficult product to work with without experience working with it. Drop the thought of Kilz. Waterborne finishes have, as Brushjockey says, a learning curve. They also set up fast. The faster they set, the less they'll level. With the proper thinning and brush technique you can achieve a nice look with the waterborne Impervo, but not completely brush free look. The best finish (at least with BM, which is my go to product) is the oil Impervo to hope to get the look you want. Again, that will require the proper thinning and brush technique to minimize brush marks. Regardless of which products you choose, I would plan to start with the least visible trim areas first to get a feel for what the product and you can achieve, in other words, don't practice on the front door. Good Luck.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:47 AM   #4
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re-painting trim - possible oil or latex


Thanks jsharidan. I'm not too concerned about being brush mark free, but the previous job had very heavy and think brush strokes, especially on the doors. My only concern with the oil impero is yellowing. The house is painted now with super white and we are planing to paint cloud white. Do you have any expereince with this product yellowing with white colors?

Thanks for your help.
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:11 AM   #5
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re-painting trim - possible oil or latex


Jwith, I've applied more than countable gallons of Impervo and honestly without the least concern that it might yellow over time. And I can't recollect a customer express their concern about such. Will it? Yes, gradually, over time. It's probably not something you will even realize until you repaint and notice it. We put wall colors on with the express understanding they will fade, but we don't notice it until we remove a picture that's been hanging for years. I would worry more about your wants and needs in the moment than something that will occur in the longer term, but that's me. If it was something that could fail, today is important, but yellowing is not failure. As with everything else in life, there are trade-offs to paint. If you have an educated, thoughtful choice, you have enough to make a decision you can live with.
In the extreme, I have a doctor customer of mine who had to make a decision on whether to take a thirty-five year or fifty year lifespan on a roofing product (the numbers used aren't exact, but illustrate). He queried a doctor friend of his about what he would do. His friend said "Bill, you're seventy-three years old, you're not going to live to see either, what difference does it make. Pick what you like for today". And so he did. The doctor, a brilliant ENT surgeon, was stymied by such simple logic.
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:42 AM   #6
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re-painting trim - possible oil or latex


I like the idea of using BIN shellac as my base and possibly oil or waterborne Impervo. This is the process/prep work I was planning on doing:

1. sand down runs, large paint brush marks with 100 grit paper
2. smooth out surface with 220 grit paper
3. MH Ready Patch Spackle - few holes
4. sand smooth again with 220 grit
5. wash and rinse with TSP
6. apply bin shellac
7. possibly apply 2nd coat of bin shellac
8. lightly sand with 220 grit if not smooth enough
9. apply either waterborne or oil based Impervo
10. sand smoothly 220 grit
11. apply final top coat

Is there any specific technique for applying BIN? I have used it to cover spots, but never applied it to the entire surface. Is there a special type of brush I should use with BIN? Nylon or White China Bristle? I was thinking about spraying BIN on the doors with HVLP. Would this give me much benefit over a paint brush?

If I go with the waterborne BM Impervo is there any special technique to apply it?

Thanks,
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:26 PM   #7
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re-painting trim - possible oil or latex


Quote:
Originally Posted by jsheridan View Post
Welcome Jwith. I've seen many instances over the years where ho's have failing paint over stained/clear coated trim due to a lack of proper prep and primer. I'm sure the sanding was fun. I would like to kind of temper your expectations regarding brush marks. If you want zero indication of brush application, you'll have to spray. You can sand the sheet out of the paint and the clear coat to reduce the existing brush marks, and with the proper finish and technique, you can minimize them but they won't be brush mark free. I hate to be a nay-sayer, but expectations have to be managed. After two decades it's still something I struggle with.
I would tend to disagree with my esteemed fellow Chrisn. While easier to work with, an acrylic primer sacrifices flow and leveling, two important charactersitics if you want a brush free look. Bm Fresh Start 024 oil will give you good adhesion and should level well enough, but that depends partly on your skill level. BIN shellac would also do much to hide the existing brush marks, give you great adhesion, and be an excellent base for your finish, but that's a difficult product to work with without experience working with it. Drop the thought of Kilz. Waterborne finishes have, as Brushjockey says, a learning curve. They also set up fast. The faster they set, the less they'll level. With the proper thinning and brush technique you can achieve a nice look with the waterborne Impervo, but not completely brush free look. The best finish (at least with BM, which is my go to product) is the oil Impervo to hope to get the look you want. Again, that will require the proper thinning and brush technique to minimize brush marks. Regardless of which products you choose, I would plan to start with the least visible trim areas first to get a feel for what the product and you can achieve, in other words, don't practice on the front door. Good Luck.
Joe

You disagree but provide no answer?. This person is looking for the impossible, I would still go with the FS, just because it is easier than the alternatives
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:42 PM   #8
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re-painting trim - possible oil or latex


Anyone who is interested. I painted all the trim, doors, and cupboards with two coats of Zinsser Bin Shellac and two coats of Benjamin Moore's Satin Impervo Waterborne. I purchased a Graco TrueCoat Plus Airless sprayer. I brushed on the shellac, and sprayed on the BM Impervo.

It was an incredible amount of work to cover everything I didn't want over spray to adhere to. A lot of paper, tape, and plastic. The finish on everything came out absolutely amazing. I couldn't ask for anything smoother. I had some problems applying the BM Impervo with the sprayer. It took a while to get used to applying the write amount of paint. Too much paint lead to sagging and too little paint left rough texture.

My biggest disappointment is the 6-pannel doors and cabinet doors. Both have cracked the paint in the seams as the doors expand and shrink with temperature and moisture. It has only been 7 months but most of the doors show a sign of cracks. I am not sure if caulking would have made a difference, but I might try it on the upstairs doors.

I am also thinking about using the oil based Impervo. I found some old Impervo (8-years) in the basement from the previous owners and I touched up a couple of bathroom cabinets and with a brush it looked amazing and has an extremely durable finish.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:52 AM   #9
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re-painting trim - possible oil or latex


The oil imp will yellow. that is the nature of the beast.
Another couple of wb alternatives is the new WB alkyd Advance. And also Cabinet Coat by Insul-x- Can sometimes be found or ordered through Ace Hardware.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:31 AM   #10
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re-painting trim - possible oil or latex


Jwith, congrats on your success. The panels on the doors are built to float in the frame, and what you're dealing with is just, as brushjockey says, the nature of the beast. I've only ever caulked them in the most extreme situations. If you caulk them, two things can or will happen, the exp/cont will pull the caulk with it and you'll still have a split, or if you caulk them while they are contracted, when they expand in the summer it will force the caulk out creating a different ugly look. Personally, I try to fill them with paint, something you can't do with spray. You could brush them in advance and then spray though. When it's an issue on the job I usually bring it to the customer's attention and explain why I am not caulking them. They usually agree. In the summer they should go away.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:42 AM   #11
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re-painting trim - possible oil or latex


Thanks jsheridan. I was thinking it would go away in the summer. I may try and touch up the paint with a brush this winter, so hopefully it wont be as noticeable next winter.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:46 AM   #12
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That's a good option.

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