Procedure And What Paint, In Painting Oak Cabinets Smooth - Painting - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Painting

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-19-2012, 01:31 AM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Procedure and what paint, in painting oak cabinets smooth


This is my first post on here and I've searched this site plus other sites for solutions to hide the grain of my red oak cabinets with a smooth paint. I know it might be impossible, so I will just have to settle for the best possible solution. I'm not going to buy new doors. So, I have a couple of procedures, with questions on them. Would very much appreciate suggestions and opinions on them. As of now, all cabinets have been sanded down to bare wood and waiting for next step.
Procedure #1: prime wood with Zinsser oil based Cover Stain, thinned with Penetrol to help penetrate. Not sure if I want it to penetrate or not?? 2 or 3 coats sanded in between coats. Then paint with what paint?? Might be either an ivory color or a dark chocolate brown. Will probably brush, cause I have never sprayed. However, I would like to learn to spray. Would a inexpensive ($150-$200) Graco HVLP work on a small job?
Procedure #2: cover cabinets with a lacquer sealer undercoat. Multiple coats, sanded between coats til smooth. Then, I'm not sure if I should use an oil based primer (CoverStain) over the lacquer before the water based paint? Or, would a water based paint adhere to the lacquer undercoat?
And then a big question about the lacquer sealer. Everyone has told me it needs to be sprayed on. Would a cheap ($25) Harbor Freight siphon gun work? It is just a undercoat. Also, whats the difference between the lacquer you buy in the paint store compared to Minwax Lacquer Sealer you can brush on? I know this is a long post, sorry. Thanks for any help

Advertisement

tommyncal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 01:47 AM   #2
Too Short? Cut it Again!
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,634
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Procedure and what paint, in painting oak cabinets smooth


I would seal with a quality sealer primer and would be tempted to use something like Benjamin Moore Fresh Start Alkyd (oil based) but you would do fine with a similar water based high bond primer or a specific enamel underlay product. Zinsser primers would do the trick.

Follow by rolling and brushing on two subsequent coats of 100 percent acrylic semi-gloss in the color of your choice. You can add some Floetrol to further lessen signs of any brush strokes but with good paint store---not box store---paint, brushes and roller covers you will not need it.

Remember semi-gloss takes 30 days to cure.

You mentioned lacquer so I assume you wanted the high gloss? You can get some acrylics in high gloss but generally only in very light tinted colors or factory mix colors. Melamine paint is another high gloss paint possibility but it is harder to work with and while it yields a nice high gloss finish it does chip easily.

Seems a shame to paint nice oak cabinetry so I assume they are stained really unevenly or something? I usually got paid handsomely to strip paint off of oak.

Advertisement


Last edited by user1007; 06-19-2012 at 01:51 AM.
user1007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 02:25 AM   #3
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Procedure and what paint, in painting oak cabinets smooth


<quote>I would seal with a quality sealer primer and would be tempted to use something like Benjamin Moore Fresh Start Alkyd (oil based) but you would do fine with a similar water based high bond primer or a specific enamel underlay product. Zinsser primers would do the trick. </quote>

I assume Fresh Start is similar, if not better, to Zinsser's Cover Stain, which is oil based too.

<quote>Follow by rolling and brushing on two subsequent coats of 100 percent acrylic semi-gloss in the color of your choice. You can add some Floetrol to further lessen signs of any brush strokes but with good paint store---not box store---paint, brushes and roller covers you will not need it.

Remember semi-gloss takes 30 days to cure.</quote>

I was looking at BM paints, Pittsburg Paint's Manor Hall and Cabinet Coat.


<quote>You mentioned lacquer so I assume you wanted the high gloss? You can get some acrylics in high gloss but generally only in very light tinted colors or factory mix colors. Melamine paint is another high gloss paint possibility but it is harder to work with and while it yields a nice high gloss finish it does chip easily.</quote>

Actually, I'm looking at a semi-gloss finish. The lacquer is strictly an undercoat to try and eliminate the grain in the oak.

<quote>Seems a shame to paint nice oak cabinetry so I assume they are stained really unevenly or something? I usually got paid handsomely to strip paint off of oak.</quote>

We just want to change the look of the cabinets and want a smooth finish. Thanks for the reply

Last edited by tommyncal; 06-19-2012 at 02:39 AM.
tommyncal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 07:30 AM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 432
Rewards Points: 254
Default

Procedure and what paint, in painting oak cabinets smooth


Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyncal View Post
<quote>I would seal with a quality sealer primer and would be tempted to use something like Benjamin Moore Fresh Start Alkyd (oil based) but you would do fine with a similar water based high bond primer or a specific enamel underlay product. Zinsser primers would do the trick. </quote>

I assume Fresh Start is similar, if not better, to Zinsser's Cover Stain, which is oil based too.

<quote>Follow by rolling and brushing on two subsequent coats of 100 percent acrylic semi-gloss in the color of your choice. You can add some Floetrol to further lessen signs of any brush strokes but with good paint store---not box store---paint, brushes and roller covers you will not need it.

Remember semi-gloss takes 30 days to cure.</quote>

I was looking at BM paints, Pittsburg Paint's Manor Hall and Cabinet Coat.


<quote>You mentioned lacquer so I assume you wanted the high gloss? You can get some acrylics in high gloss but generally only in very light tinted colors or factory mix colors. Melamine paint is another high gloss paint possibility but it is harder to work with and while it yields a nice high gloss finish it does chip easily.</quote>

Actually, I'm looking at a semi-gloss finish. The lacquer is strictly an undercoat to try and eliminate the grain in the oak.

<quote>Seems a shame to paint nice oak cabinetry so I assume they are stained really unevenly or something? I usually got paid handsomely to strip paint off of oak.</quote>

We just want to change the look of the cabinets and want a smooth finish. Thanks for the reply
Hiya Tommy,

If I understand your question correctly, you've sanded the doors down to bare wood, and now want to put on a lacquer sealer to fill the grain of red oak? Then follow with a coat of oil based primer and finish with an acrylic topcoat?

To begin, you're mixing too many resin types for a relatively simple application - AND lacquer sealer will NOT fill the open grain of red oak for a "smooth" finish, that's not what a lacquer sealer is designed to do. Do you know what type of finish was on the cabinets before sanding to bare wood? Not only will lacquer sealer NOT fill open grain, it's not compatible with all finishes - and sanding, by itself, will not necessarily remove all of the previous finish. Re-consider the lacquer sealer app, it won't fill open grain and it may cause issues with any residue of previous coating.

If you're gonna insist on filling the open grain, you need Paste Wood Filler. I think Old Masters still makes one and should be available through your local independent paint dealer - although don't be surprised if he/she has to order it for you as there's not much call for this product anymore. Paste Wood Filler is a varnish-type material, laden with stearates, that is applied by brush then wiped against the grain to fill. Product cannot be sprayed and cannot be top coated with lacquer or polyurethanes.

Once PWF has been applied and you're satisfied with the results, you can prime it with either an acrylic or alkyd primer, then top coat with the acrylic of your choice...Personally, I'd choose Cabinet Coat over Manor Hall as the resin types (both acrylic) are slightly different, but CC cures faster, and to a harder finish.

With the exception of the Paste Wood Filler, all other components can be sprayed by HVLP, but if you've never sprayed before, find some scrap wood and practice...practice...practice.
ric knows paint is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ric knows paint For This Useful Post:
ToolSeeker (09-29-2012)
Old 06-19-2012, 07:41 AM   #5
Rubbin walls since'79
 
Brushjockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Mn
Posts: 2,518
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Procedure and what paint, in painting oak cabinets smooth


first- are they raw or presently varnished? You will get no penetration if they are already sealed, but need to prep for adhesion.
No amount of any kind of primer/ paint will fill oak in enough to be " formica smooth".
The texture will read through, and personally I think it can be nice. But with lots of effort with a grain filler, sanding etc you could get it smooth. If the doors have a panel, this makes it LOTS more work.
Cabs are a difficult thing to spray for anyone without good instruction and experience. And a cheap sprayer will give poor results. I have a 4 stage HVLP , costs about $1000. My airless is a Titan 440, . You will not get results like that from a $50 sprayer.
__________________
"It's better to come here with questions before you screw up than to come here after and ask how to fix them."- JS
Brushjockey is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Brushjockey For This Useful Post:
user1007 (06-19-2012)
Old 06-19-2012, 01:14 PM   #6
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Procedure and what paint, in painting oak cabinets smooth


Quote:
Originally Posted by ric knows paint View Post
Hiya Tommy,

If I understand your question correctly, you've sanded the doors down to bare wood, and now want to put on a lacquer sealer to fill the grain of red oak? Then follow with a coat of oil based primer and finish with an acrylic topcoat?

To begin, you're mixing too many resin types for a relatively simple application - AND lacquer sealer will NOT fill the open grain of red oak for a "smooth" finish, that's not what a lacquer sealer is designed to do. Do you know what type of finish was on the cabinets before sanding to bare wood? Not only will lacquer sealer NOT fill open grain, it's not compatible with all finishes - and sanding, by itself, will not necessarily remove all of the previous finish. Re-consider the lacquer sealer app, it won't fill open grain and it may cause issues with any residue of previous coating.

If you're gonna insist on filling the open grain, you need Paste Wood Filler. I think Old Masters still makes one and should be available through your local independent paint dealer - although don't be surprised if he/she has to order it for you as there's not much call for this product anymore. Paste Wood Filler is a varnish-type material, laden with stearates, that is applied by brush then wiped against the grain to fill. Product cannot be sprayed and cannot be top coated with lacquer or polyurethanes.

Once PWF has been applied and you're satisfied with the results, you can prime it with either an acrylic or alkyd primer, then top coat with the acrylic of your choice...Personally, I'd choose Cabinet Coat over Manor Hall as the resin types (both acrylic) are slightly different, but CC cures faster, and to a harder finish.

With the exception of the Paste Wood Filler, all other components can be sprayed by HVLP, but if you've never sprayed before, find some scrap wood and practice...practice...practice.
You understood correctly and thanks for the reply. The red oak was finished with some sort of white wash and some still has remained, soaking into the grain pretty good. I just read on a older thread, by a couple of posters, that the lacquer would be the way to go. I'm not sure if I want to try and spread a grain filler over all the raised portions of the door. So, I think I'll just go with the mutiple coats of the alkyd primer and then topcoat. Thanks on the Cabinet Coat suggestion over the Manor Hall.
tommyncal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 01:21 PM   #7
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Procedure and what paint, in painting oak cabinets smooth


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brushjockey View Post
first- are they raw or presently varnished? You will get no penetration if they are already sealed, but need to prep for adhesion.
No amount of any kind of primer/ paint will fill oak in enough to be " formica smooth".
The texture will read through, and personally I think it can be nice. But with lots of effort with a grain filler, sanding etc you could get it smooth. If the doors have a panel, this makes it LOTS more work.
Cabs are a difficult thing to spray for anyone without good instruction and experience. And a cheap sprayer will give poor results. I have a 4 stage HVLP , costs about $1000. My airless is a Titan 440, . You will not get results like that from a $50 sprayer.
They are sanded very good. Still not quite sure why a lacquer undercoat wouldn't cover over the grain though and leave a smooth finish if sanded. Thanks for the opinion on the sprayers. But the question is, will a $150 Graco HVLP leave a better finish than a brush?
tommyncal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 06:20 PM   #8
Rubbin walls since'79
 
Brushjockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Mn
Posts: 2,518
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Procedure and what paint, in painting oak cabinets smooth


How good are you with that sprayer- how good are you with a brush?

This is more about the skill of the applicator I'm afraid. In the wrong hands ether can be a disaster- in the right one a thing of beauty. ( I assume about the sprayer- I know nothing about it)

I don't like lacquer in general- a finish that is too brittle. But that is just me. And I don't see why it would fill any better. Most laqs need to be sprayed also.
__________________
"It's better to come here with questions before you screw up than to come here after and ask how to fix them."- JS
Brushjockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 06:36 PM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 432
Rewards Points: 254
Default

Procedure and what paint, in painting oak cabinets smooth


Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyncal View Post
They are sanded very good. Still not quite sure why a lacquer undercoat wouldn't cover over the grain though and leave a smooth finish if sanded. Thanks for the opinion on the sprayers. But the question is, will a $150 Graco HVLP leave a better finish than a brush?
When you speak of lacquer sealer, I'm assuming you're speaking of a clear lacquer sanding sealer? If so, there's a couple reasons why sanding sealer shouldn't be used to fill open grain even if it could...The first reason is solids content - the solids content of a lacquer sanding sealer (LSS) is usually around 21-24%, which means 76-79% of the film that has been applied, is gonna flash off. As that happens, the applied film is gonna shrink (dramatically), and conform very tightly to the contours of the surface it's applied to. The other reason it shouldn't be used is, once LSS has been applied, most finishers are going to sand most of what's on the surface off again. Why? LSS are designed to seal porous wood so that the subsequently applied finish coats will dry to a continual film and sheen, without flashing. If the sealer isn't sanded, and is applied heavy enough to fill open grain, what remains is a thick, soft, friable and unstable foundation for however many coats of whatever you apply over it...and without a stable foundation, you won't enjoy the full benefit of the finish products we've discussed so far.

Also, a $150 Graco HVLP - is that a gun only? ...or the spray unit, including turbine? If the turbine is included, the price kinda indicates it's a 1 or 2 stage turbine - which is fine for fine finishing products, but not so fine for more viscous products. Graco makes some fine products, but read the lit and see if it's recommended for use with alkyd primers or acrylic finishes - or better yet, call Graco's customer service hotline (I assume they have one) and tell them the products you're considering. If they say that turbine will deliver the goods, then - Yes - with practice, it will absolutely be capable of providing a smoother finish than with a brush (although, Cabinet Coat flows and levels beautifully even by brush).

P.S. (then I promise I'm done...promise) - In your first post, you asked what's the difference between Minwax Lacquer Sealer and "the lacquer you buy in a paint store". First off, I didn't know Minwax made a lacquer sealer, so I'm gonna assume it's simply a brushing lacquer (like Deft, et al)...which means the differences are in the oils used to extend the lacquer with, plus the solvents used are much higher flash than the spray only variety. As a finish product (once dried and cured), will be very similar.

Last edited by ric knows paint; 06-20-2012 at 08:32 AM.
ric knows paint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 07:03 PM   #10
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Procedure and what paint, in painting oak cabinets smooth


Quote:
Originally Posted by ric knows paint View Post
When you speak of lacquer sealer, I'm assuming you're speaking of a clear lacquer sanding sealer? If so, there's a couple reasons why sanding sealer shouldn't be used to fill open grain even if it could...The first reason is solids content - the solids content of a lacquer sanding sealer (LSS) is usually around 21-24%, which means 76-79% of the film that has been applied, is gonna flash off. As that happens, the applied film is gonna shrink (dramatically), and conform very tightly to the contours of the surface it's applied to. The other reason it shouldn't be used is, once LSS has been applied, most finishers are going to sand most of what's on the surface off again. Why? LSS are designed to seal porous wood so that the subsequently applied finish coats will dry to a continual film and sheen, without flashing. If the sealer isn't sanded, and is applied heavy enough to fill open grain, what remains is a thick, soft, friable and unstable foundation for however many coats of whatever you apply over it...and without a stable foundation, you won't enjoy the full benefit of the finish products we've discussed so far.

Also, a $150 Graco HVLP - is that a gun only? ...or the spray unit, including turbine? If the turbine is included, the price kinda indicates it's a 1 or 2 stage turbine - which is fine for fine finishing products, but not so fine for more viscous products. Graco makes some fine products, but read the lit and see if it's recommended for use with alkyd primers or acrylic finishes - or better yet, call Graco's customer service hotline (I assume they have one) and tell them the products you're considering. If they say that turbine will deliver the goods, then - Yes - with practice, it will absolutely be capable of providing a smoother finish than with a brush (although, Cabinet Coat flows and levels beautifully even by brush).

P.S. (then I promise I'm done...promise) - In your first post, you asked what's the difference between Minwax Lacquer Sealer and "the lacquer you buy in a paint store". First off, I didn't know Minwax made a lacquer sealer, so I'm gonna assume it's simply a brushing lacquer (like Deft, et al)...which means the differences are in the oils used to extend the lacquer with, plus the solvents used are much lower flash than the spray only variety. As a finish product (once dried and cured), will be very similar.
Thanks for the education on the lacquer. A lot to take in and understand. Will just do my best with multiple coats of the alkyd primer then the topcoat. It is just a guest bathroom. Using it as practice before I take on the kitchen. The $150 Graco sprayer, at Lowes, is called Graco 3900 Spray Station. It does come with the turbine. I can't find it on the Graco website, so I'm guessing they only make it for Lowes. Will call Graco tech support and see what they have top say about it. Thanks for all your help
tommyncal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2012, 11:09 AM   #11
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Procedure and what paint, in painting oak cabinets smooth


I am okay with keeping my white washed oak cabinets but water damage to edges of doors by the sink are unsightly. The door facings and box areas behind doors are fine. Is there any products to touch up the edges since the finish has chipped off in that area?

Last edited by sdugan; 09-29-2012 at 11:16 AM.
sdugan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2012, 12:49 PM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: outside ocala fl
Posts: 3,812
Rewards Points: 2,660
Default

Procedure and what paint, in painting oak cabinets smooth


Quote:
Originally Posted by ric knows paint View Post
When you speak of lacquer sealer, I'm assuming you're speaking of a clear lacquer sanding sealer? If so, there's a couple reasons why sanding sealer shouldn't be used to fill open grain even if it could...The first reason is solids content - the solids content of a lacquer sanding sealer (LSS) is usually around 21-24%, which means 76-79% of the film that has been applied, is gonna flash off. As that happens, the applied film is gonna shrink (dramatically), and conform very tightly to the contours of the surface it's applied to. The other reason it shouldn't be used is, once LSS has been applied, most finishers are going to sand most of what's on the surface off again. Why? LSS are designed to seal porous wood so that the subsequently applied finish coats will dry to a continual film and sheen, without flashing. If the sealer isn't sanded, and is applied heavy enough to fill open grain, what remains is a thick, soft, friable and unstable foundation for however many coats of whatever you apply over it...and without a stable foundation, you won't enjoy the full benefit of the finish products we've discussed so far.

Also, a $150 Graco HVLP - is that a gun only? ...or the spray unit, including turbine? If the turbine is included, the price kinda indicates it's a 1 or 2 stage turbine - which is fine for fine finishing products, but not so fine for more viscous products. Graco makes some fine products, but read the lit and see if it's recommended for use with alkyd primers or acrylic finishes - or better yet, call Graco's customer service hotline (I assume they have one) and tell them the products you're considering. If they say that turbine will deliver the goods, then - Yes - with practice, it will absolutely be capable of providing a smoother finish than with a brush (although, Cabinet Coat flows and levels beautifully even by brush).

P.S. (then I promise I'm done...promise) - In your first post, you asked what's the difference between Minwax Lacquer Sealer and "the lacquer you buy in a paint store". First off, I didn't know Minwax made a lacquer sealer, so I'm gonna assume it's simply a brushing lacquer (like Deft, et al)...which means the differences are in the oils used to extend the lacquer with, plus the solvents used are much higher flash than the spray only variety. As a finish product (once dried and cured), will be very similar.
Ric the Graco 3900, think Paint Zoom from the infomercial. I have one they are Not real bad. I got it for like 1 door or small trim job. Not sure I would trust it for a quality cabinet job. but the best I can offer is practice before you use it on some scrap wood.

Advertisement


Last edited by ToolSeeker; 10-01-2012 at 03:56 PM.
ToolSeeker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Top of Page | View New Posts