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Old 10-20-2007, 12:41 PM   #1
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problem with behr paint


I am painting my kitchen with a sateen cranapple color (behr paint). We painted the first time without priming it. It peeled off the walls like a sheet. I went and talked to the place that I bought it from and they said i should prime it first. Bought primer, peeled all the paint off and primed and repainted. When taking the tape off again it is peeling. My walls are almost ruined from this. What am I doing wrong?

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Old 10-20-2007, 05:36 PM   #2
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problem with behr paint


A few things possibly wrong:

1) Poor adhesion can be caused by a grease film on your walls, since this is your kitchen. Wash them down with TSP (TriSodiumPhosphate), and rinse just prior to application of the primer. No paint will stick to grease, especially...
2) Behr paint. To be blunt, it's junk. If it would work and save money, you can bet that there would be a line out the door of contractors buying the stuff. If you are having problems you need to get yourself some Sherwin Williams or Benjamin Moore or other Paint Store paint, and get stuff near or at the top of their lines. Bring in your Behr paint, and any store will be able to match the color. (Low-end SW or BM paint is not meant for a job like this, so don't waste your money on it.)
3) Primer. After scraping and sanding all loose paint off of your wall, use a quality water-base bonding primer from the paint store where you buy your paint. If you bought primer from HD, you probably ended up with Kilz2, which is largely useless.
4) Tape. Tape will peel off any fresh paint job. It takes days to weeks (depending on the paint) for the paint job to cure sufficiently where tape will not peel it off the wall. With a steady hand, a quality brush, and a little bit of practice, you can work without tape, even as a DIY. Tape is great for things like masking off quarter-round, metal hardware, etc. There is no reason to apply it to a painted surface.

As for other advice, get yourself a quality brush (Purdy is an easy-to-find and popular brand) and some quality roller covers (at least a 3/8" nap, 100% poly, or 50/50 poly/woll, and Purdy or Wooster)

SirWired

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Old 10-21-2007, 02:21 PM   #3
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problem with behr paint


Also, if the previous walls had an enamel finish it could be preventing tooth for the new paint to stick to. A light sanding helps provide this, coupled with zinsser 123 bonding primer and topcoat with BM Regal eggshell you'll have a quality job.

Also, regarding the tape, sirwired is right, tape will pull off fresh acrylic. If you get everything done in one day (painting that is), pull the tape before it can set up. It will pull a straight line pretty consistently- but if you wait too long you'll have to score the edge before pulling it.

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Old 10-21-2007, 06:37 PM   #4
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problem with behr paint


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirwired View Post
A few things possibly wrong:

1) Poor adhesion can be caused by a grease film on your walls, since this is your kitchen....
2) Behr paint. To be blunt, it's junk....
3) Primer....If you bought primer from HD, you probably ended up with Kilz2, which is largely useless.
4) Tape. Tape will peel off any fresh paint job...
#5
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Originally Posted by Da Vinci View Post
Also, if the previous walls had an enamel finish it could be preventing tooth for the new paint to stick to....
#6 Common for older paint jobs for the kitchen to be oil based paint. latex often won't stick to oil-based w/o proper prep and (oil-based) prime

Any of these could be your problem, it's probably more than one

As mentioned both Behr and Kilz2 are poor products with high failure rates, especially in less than ideal conditions (which a kitchen would be)

Get some real paint and primer (and much better advice) at a real Paint Store

Kitchens need extra special prep cleaning wise

A scuff sanding is always a good idea anyway, but really needed when painting over eggshell, satin, pearl, or semi-gloss often found in kitchens

Tape is supposed to be a tool, not a crutch, and the most over/mis-used sundry by novices/DIYers...you can't tape fresh un-cured paint (weeks old is still fresh)

Do a test for oil-based paint
Wipe the painted surface with a rag with Ooops!, Goof Off!, or denatured alcohol on it
If nothing comes off onto the rag, it's oil-based paint
If a little tiny bit sort of rubs off, it's probably oil
If it turns liquid and wipes off color onto the wet rag, it's latex
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Old 06-06-2009, 06:51 PM   #5
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problem with behr paint


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirwired View Post
A few things possibly wrong:

1) Poor adhesion can be caused by a grease film on your walls, since this is your kitchen. Wash them down with TSP (TriSodiumPhosphate), and rinse just prior to application of the primer. No paint will stick to grease, especially...
2) Behr paint. To be blunt, it's junk. If it would work and save money, you can bet that there would be a line out the door of contractors buying the stuff. If you are having problems you need to get yourself some Sherwin Williams or Benjamin Moore or other Paint Store paint, and get stuff near or at the top of their lines. Bring in your Behr paint, and any store will be able to match the color. (Low-end SW or BM paint is not meant for a job like this, so don't waste your money on it.)
3) Primer. After scraping and sanding all loose paint off of your wall, use a quality water-base bonding primer from the paint store where you buy your paint. If you bought primer from HD, you probably ended up with Kilz2, which is largely useless.
4) Tape. Tape will peel off any fresh paint job. It takes days to weeks (depending on the paint) for the paint job to cure sufficiently where tape will not peel it off the wall. With a steady hand, a quality brush, and a little bit of practice, you can work without tape, even as a DIY. Tape is great for things like masking off quarter-round, metal hardware, etc. There is no reason to apply it to a painted surface.

As for other advice, get yourself a quality brush (Purdy is an easy-to-find and popular brand) and some quality roller covers (at least a 3/8" nap, 100% poly, or 50/50 poly/woll, and Purdy or Wooster)

SirWired

My God there are so many things wrong with this where do I start.

First Kilz2 is fine, Sherwin Williams paint(especially interior) is worse than Behr but Benjamin Moore is a good product.
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Old 06-06-2009, 07:21 PM   #6
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problem with behr paint


Quote:
Originally Posted by cr8f View Post
First Kilz2 is fine, Sherwin Williams paint(especially interior) is worse than Behr
how much did they pay you to come here and post this ridiculous crap?

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Old 06-06-2009, 07:28 PM   #7
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problem with behr paint


Quote:
Originally Posted by cr8f View Post
My God there are so many things wrong with this where do I start.

First Kilz2 is fine, Sherwin Williams paint(especially interior) is worse than Behr but Benjamin Moore is a good product.
Keep smokin' that stuff, cr8f....it's obviously doing ya lots of good.....
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Old 06-06-2009, 08:59 PM   #8
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problem with behr paint


Tone down the comments and keep it on topic please.

2 deleted already.

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Old 06-07-2009, 06:31 AM   #9
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problem with behr paint


sorry Ed, but you HAVE to understand how the regulars here feel......
sirwired, slickshift, davinci, you guys just keep on helping people, your experience has helped many, many of us already and will continue to do so.
deleted some posts??? i had to scroll up to see if mine was gone... still there....
gee, makes me wonder just how naughty some others were? hehehehe

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Last edited by DangerMouse; 06-07-2009 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 06-07-2009, 06:32 AM   #10
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problem with behr paint


No kidding.

Let me distill these comments down a little.

Sherwin Williams/Benjamin Moore have to be good because they are paint stores.

Products bought at Home Depot must be bad because they are well ... Home Depot.

Nice simple argument but it is devoid of any facts.

Look up any test organization such as Consumers Union (or others) before making blanket assumptions.

Sherwin Williams sells a lot of bad products and HD sells a lot of good ones.

The real prerequisite of a good paint job isn't the paint at all...it's preparation. When using any latex product cleanliness is key. You can't just put on a bonding primer and expect it to stick to everything. Oil is better than latex if you're painting over oils and other surface residues but these should be cleaned and shiny surfaces sanded to give them tooth(surface that paint can stick to).

Hell if most people would just follow the instructions on the back of paint cans they'd be ahead.

There are products sold at hardware and lumber yards that are good and products sold at paint stores that aren't.

From my own experience Behr is very picky on what it sticks to. It needs the right primer and preparation.

Pratt and ambert used to be my favorite paint but was bought up by Sherwin Williams a few years back. They and one other large corporation (ICI I think) have been buying up virtually all the national family owned companies and they qulity has suffered. Benjamin Moore is the only national high quality company left.

Original Kilz is still the top product used by fire and smoke damage companies for restoring burned out interiors.

Don't like that comment quit with the childish name calling and prove me wrong.
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Old 06-07-2009, 06:57 AM   #11
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problem with behr paint


Quote:
Originally Posted by cr8f View Post
if most people would just follow the instructions on the back of paint cans they'd be ahead.
a most valid point right there....

thank you for not returning and being a total @$$ about this, but the professional painters, (and regular folks) here HAVE validated the reasons behind the feelings for behr products many times.

all paint companies have high-end and low-end cheaper paint, the behr brand just seems to have the most problems, hence the higher #s of negative posts.
as i stated in another post, i personally have never had a problem with any paint! but i've seen other's 'work' and 5 coats still not covering is unacceptable even for watered down whitewash. heck, i buy dollar store paint, 'whatever' brand for 5 bucks a gallon and it's fine for me.

and i totally agree with you that preparation is 99% of the job. if it ain't ready to recieve the paint, no paint will do it right. (greasy kitchen walls come to mind.)

here's some more reading on kilz2...
Kilz 2 Latex mini report

search this site for behr, there are far more complaints on it than any other paint.

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Old 06-07-2009, 10:16 AM   #12
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problem with behr paint


cr8f,

Since things seem to have calmed down here, I will jump in as the original poster targeted...

SW and BM do indeed sell good products because they are paint stores. In the experience of those on this board, who have attempted to help many DIY-ers get their painting projects to be successful, Behr and their ilk have all the appearance of being highly cost-controlled products targeted towards consumers that want to pay as little as possible for their paint. Many consumers here have reported many problems with Behr coverage (mostly in the deep colors, reds especially) and consistency. I personally applied Behr waterproofing so bad, it was the subject of a class-action lawsuit. (It mildewed after only a week, and it's water protection quickly broke down in sunlight.)

To top it off, the paint is usually sold by undertrained employees that have little understanding of how to handle individual situations. I once personally witnessed an employee overfill a paint can with colorant, an indication that the employee used the wrong base. The response of the employee: tell the customer: "I guess you get a little extra paint for free this time." Yes, SW and BM dealers do have some bad apples here and there, but they both likely have far lower turnover and better training for their employees. Paint stores also have a better selection; Big Box does not even sell waterbourne enamels similar to ProClassic or Impervo. (Yes, Behr is water-based, and calls itself an enamel, but it isn't the same as those two products, which provide an oil-like finish on trim in a water-base product.)

We do admit to being quite puzzled by the CR testing of paint. We suspect that CR, for cost, speed, and consistency reasons, does not apply paint in completely realistic situations. In addition, since Behr is a DIY-targeted brand, it would make sense for them to target their paint design to CR's tests, instead of perhaps actual painting projects, which are inherently different from a lab.

SW and BM do indeed sell products completely unsuitable for a DIY. However, for the most part, these products are specialty contractor products meant for highly-specific uses, such as a low-end apartment repaint. (Okay, the SW Visible Solutions paint is, indeed, complete crap (according to several reports here), but it is only one product among hundreds.)

Yes, prep is indeed the key to many paint jobs. However, the paint should not go out of its way to make the job harder; a paint that is "very picky as to what it sticks to" is not a paint I would want to use.

We do not have any criticism here for Original Kilz. We routinely recommend it to consumers needing an easy-to-find oil-base primer (the upwards-shooting can for water-spots is especially useful.) It is just water-base Kilz products that receive a resolute thumbs-down here. Many customers have reported serious adhesion problems with Kilz2, including it literally falling off the wall. It appears to have these issues even in unchallenging environments such as well-cleaned brand-new drywall. I am a little puzzled by your comment about Original Kilz being used for smoke restoration though; serious smoke damage usually requires a shellac-based primer such as Zinsser BIN, or SW PrepRite Pigmented Shellac.

SirWired
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Old 06-07-2009, 03:40 PM   #13
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problem with behr paint


Well I dont agree that Behr Paint is junk, it is definatly a lower grade of paint then some but it is also higher then others. I have been a painter for 23 years and from the way this was talked about I would say improper prep is the reason why it didnt bond. I do agree that the walls may have had grease on them and if you used something like bullseye 123 or other water based primer that would not help at all. You actually needed to use an oil based bonding primer and maybe more then 1 coat after you 100% cleaned the walls with a soap like dawn and water. I do not agree with TSP as the amount of rinsing that you would have to do would destroy the walls but Dawn really does take grease out of the way.

FIX: Clean the walls as is with a dawn soap and water, sand the walls lightly with a sanding block and wipe them down and then apply an oil primer and allow that to dry overnight. Since the walls look destroyed and I have not seen pics I will just take your word either skim coat them or texture them using joint compound, then oil prime again and then you can paint. Much less expensive then remove and replace and much nicer looking (if you texture) then just painting over a badly painted surface.
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Old 06-07-2009, 05:17 PM   #14
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problem with behr paint


Quote:
Originally Posted by cr8f View Post
No kidding.

Let me distill these comments down a little.


Original Kilz is still the top product used by fire and smoke damage companies for restoring burned out interiors.
Wrong. Bin is the industry standard for smoke damage. I don't mean to bash you at all, but that comment and your comment saying Sherwin Williams is junk and Behr is better is just lack of experience. I have never had Sherwin Williams sag and run like Behr and I have used Sherwin Williams off and on professionally for 15 years.
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Old 06-07-2009, 08:32 PM   #15
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problem with behr paint


I'm not a painter but I've used a lot of Behr & it just plain sucks
I've done a lot of painting between this house, my last house & wife's condo
Behr just runs/sags & does not cover as good as other paints I have used. I'm at the point of not buying Behr ever again. But they are offering to compensate me for the paint I've used & offering to allow me to try their new paint "for free"

So if they follow thru on their offer I will try their new paint

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