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Old 12-17-2009, 01:08 PM   #1
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


I知 painting doors and trim. It痴 an 80 year old apartment. Some of the wood was stripped back to raw wood, others were stripped back only to older layers of oil paint.

I started priming yesterday with Ben Moore Alkyd Underbody Primer #217. I値l topcoat with Ben Moore Acrylic Satin Impervo.

What is the best prime/paint schedule to use? I was thinking of one coat of primer, sand with 220 grit, then put two coats of Impervo top coat, scuffing between 1st and second coat.

However, I知 thinking it might be easier to sand the primer and read where two coats of Underbody primer are used, sanding after each, then one top coat Impervo?

Anyway, could I get some feedback on how this is generally done and the benefit of the approach?

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Old 12-17-2009, 01:23 PM   #2
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


you should do two coats of finish for uniform sheen.

on your final coat of finish reduce the material with Floetrol to help the material level evenly and it will be easier to work with.

just my two cents

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Old 12-17-2009, 01:46 PM   #3
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


Quote:
Originally Posted by NAV View Post
you should do two coats of finish for uniform sheen.

on your final coat of finish reduce the material with Floetrol to help the material level evenly and it will be easier to work with.

just my two cents

I'll add 2 more
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:10 PM   #4
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


Two topcoat was my original plan, so it sounds like I should stick to it.

Chris, the Ben Moore Alkyd Underbody Primer is replacing the Coverstain (which was way too ropey for my liking and didn't level no matter what I added...some trim has a coat of Coverstain, but I'll sand the prominent brush strokes out and hit it again with Underbody).

So are two primer coats recommended? I'm concerned if I sand the primer I may accidentally cut through some edges to the bare wood...and my thinking two coats sanded would be smoother. Underbody is expensive though and two coats maybe just uneccesary work and expense?

Hows this usually done?
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:18 PM   #5
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


I think one coat of primer is sufficient. if you read the data pages on the material it will tell you how thick the material should be applied. if you apply two coats you may be making it too thick and taking away from the performance of the material.
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:38 PM   #6
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


Floetrol with a nice brush is a gift from God but will slow even the basic recoat time, and the cure time. That is what it is supposed to do. I cannot yet achieve the look I can with oil based using it but I can come close to a brush stroke free looking trim. Only another painter would spot a brush stroke in my trim work.

Remember, your latex/acrylic finish is going to need 30 days to cure! Don't race it all given how much attention your are putting into this.

If you go crazy and lay on "two" many coats, too fast? You will have a mess you will not like. You bought good paint and did things right. Let the paint do its thing now.

And you cannot and do not want to scuff up a semi-gloss acrylic finish coat between coats unless you have given it 30 days. Give it a chance. You should put on a second coat within 4-8 hours but you don't want to sand or touch the first coat.

Last edited by user1007; 12-17-2009 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:39 PM   #7
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


Try one of these Purdy OX hair brushes. Yeah, $24.00 is pricy, but they are really soft bristle and work great. A painter friend of mine uses his semi worn out latex brushes on oil, the thinner will soften the bristles making the brush a bit floppy, but much better than the typical stiff chinese bristle oil brush.



http://www.paintsupply.net/Brushes/P...dy_ox_hair.htm
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:14 PM   #8
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


So, is the consensus one coat of primer, sand, followed by two top coats of acrylic Impervo?

No sanding between topcoats (unless waiting 30 daysI値l forgo sanding).
What grit do I sand the Underbody Primer at?

PS Kevin: is that brush for acrylic Impervo, or strictly an oil brush.
I知 using a white China bristle Purdy for the oil primer.
I have a couple Purdy Nylon brushes for the Latex.

PSS: Any tips on tackling the doors?

Thanks again guys.
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:19 PM   #9
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


use 220 grit to sand

the ox hair is an oil brush

latex doesn't sand so good when it is fresh but you can skuff off any imperfections in the paint with the 220

if the doors are flat panel you should roll them with 1/4" nap or mohair
if they are panel doors:
  1. paint the panels first
  2. paint the flat surfaces 2nd
  3. make sure to use long smooth strokes
  4. if you are a slow painter, paint the panels, let it dry then paint the flat surface so you don't mess up the brush strokes on the panels
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:42 PM   #10
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovegasoline View Post
So, is the consensus one coat of primer, sand, followed by two top coats of acrylic Impervo?

No sanding between topcoats (unless waiting 30 daysI値l forgo sanding).
What grit do I sand the Underbody Primer at?

PS Kevin: is that brush for acrylic Impervo, or strictly an oil brush.
I知 using a white China bristle Purdy for the oil primer.
I have a couple Purdy Nylon brushes for the Latex.

PSS: Any tips on tackling the doors?

Thanks again guys.
Oops,

I was thinking the Impervo was an oil product. For the oil primer the white bristle purdy would work fine.

KK
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:59 PM   #11
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


Totally wrong brush for latex!

You want a 2-1/2 inch, angled sash brush, for latex paints and one made out of synthetics but nicely trimmed. Aim for Purdy, Wooster or something like it. Expect to pay $15-20 retail. If you think you can handle a 3" sash brush, I would go for that for doors but 2.5s are what I use most. Unless, I am racing through a lot of doors of all things.

As mentioned you work your way out from the inside to the outside when painting doors. Feathering is the term and adding Floetrol will buy you some time and cover a lot of mistakes. Lay the paint on and than use the high quality brush we are making you buy to gently drag over the surface in one direction to smooth things out. You feather in the direction most natural to what things should look like in case you do leave a brush stroke. Your door panels are going to be vertical as is the frame on either side of them. Horizontal frames get a gentle stroke or two the other direction.

I cannot speak to consensus but of course get to a nice primer coat you are happy with. 95 percent of any paint job hides in the prep work. Then two finish coats if you want to do it right. You cannot sand semi-gloss latex/acrylic between coats though.
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Old 12-17-2009, 05:04 PM   #12
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


Thanks for the guidance.
While I have your input on this thread, allow me to ask:

Spackle OK Over Oil Primer?
If I need to touchup some small chips or grooves in oil primed door frames can I use the MH Spackle?

Door Type
The doors here are frame and panel, but just one big frame and one big central panel (not like 4 or 6 separate panel sections).

I have read of a technique where the paint is rolled on to get the paint on the door, then tipped off with a brush. Is this useful or backwards? Woud it be helpful for my door type?

I have two raw wood doors. One has been primed with two coats of Coverstain and sanded back with a ROS with 100 grit anpaper...it feels very smooth butI cut through to the wood in a few spots, I'm thinking just spot prime and feather sand it in, then topcoat.
A few more doors have been sanded with ROS down to an old oil layer,...so they are pretty smooth doors. The rest are just old many layered orange peeled paint and these I will are just prime, paint, and they will look somewhat gross just like they always have.

Prime Over Old Latex?
What about doors that have old latex paint? Should I bother hitting these with the Underbody Alkyd primer too, or just go right to a top coat of Impervo?

Cleaning before priming
I read about using ammonia and mixed an ammonia/water solution. Then I read somewhere that ammonia reacts with Alkyds in a bad way and there is nothing one can use to nuetralize the ammonia on the molding/doors. So next, I used some denatured alcohol to clean, will that suffice?

Last edited by Lovegasoline; 12-17-2009 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 12-17-2009, 05:11 PM   #13
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


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Originally Posted by NAV View Post
if the doors are flat panel you should roll them with 1/4" nap or mohair
Hugh? In my opinion 1/4" nap roller covers should be outlawed for anything but applying glue. I know they come cheap, 20 to a bag for $5?

They hold no paint! And they give a horrible surface and you cannot work the paint you are applying.

I never use anything less than 3/8 and seldom less than 1/2. For most semi-gloss surfaces I roll for kitchens or baths, or rolling out doors panels insets (always finish them with a brush) I was taught to use 3/4"!

If you are taking some time to paint, why not actually put some paint on with a real roller cover to the point you control what things look like?
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Old 12-17-2009, 05:40 PM   #14
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Primer/Topcoat Schedule for Trim?


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Originally Posted by Lovegasoline View Post
Thanks for the guidance.

If I need to touchup some small chips or grooves in oil primed door frames can I use the MH Spackle?

The doors here are frame and panel, but just one big frame and one big central panel (not like 4 or 6 separate panel sections).

I have read of a technique where the paint is rolled on to get the paint on the door, then tipped off with a brush. Is this useful or backwards? Woud it be helpful for my door type?

I have two raw wood doors. One has been primed with two coats of Coverstain and sanded back with a ROS with 100 grit anpaper...it feels very smooth butI cut through to the wood in a few spots, I'm thinking just spot prime and feather sand it in, then topcoat.
A few more doors have been sanded with ROS down to an old oil layer,...so they are pretty smooth doors. The rest are just old many layered orange peeled paint and these I will are just prime, paint, and they will look somewhat gross just like they always have.


What about doors that have old latex paint? Should I bother hitting these with the Underbody Alkyd primer too, or just go right to a top coat of Impervo?
Spackle is bad word among painters. You could use some drywall compound, wet sand it, prime and then paint over for minor dings in your woodwork.

You need to degloss even your latex glossy surfaces somehow. Sandpaper works if the paint is cured. I happen to trust etching it with chemical de-glossers more.

I happen to love rolling and then finishing doors and especially if I have lots to do. With Floetrol in the paint, I use a 3/4" nap roller cover for the panels and then chase after them to make it look like I painted everything with a brush. I never cheat on the door structures though. I can spot rolled framework in a second and will turn homicidal and kill people that paint trim with those stupid little four inch rollers!

You should not put latex paint over oil if you can buy and deal with the alkyd type primer products where you are. The alternative is the class of superbonding latex primers.

New wood doors need to be primed before you paint them with something.

Alkyds are the great equalizers but disappearing soon in the US without permits to use them since they are suspended in oil based solvents. I would use them while you can to cover the orange trim. I in fact try to prime just about anything my clients let me since I often do not know what it is I am about to paint over?
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:04 PM   #15
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Oops,

I was thinking the Impervo was an oil product. For the oil primer the white bristle purdy would work fine.

KK
Not to worry. I don't think I can get water based forms of Impervo where I am and had to look on the Ben Moore site. I always thought it an oil based product only product too.

Used part of a quart of the oily stuff to finish off the base of a clawfoot tub today. Used a Purdy brush not unlike what you recommended, and Impervo as I know it, to do it.

I have been running the brush under water from the sink for an hour now and the paint will not come out. What should I do? Like you said I would have paid nearly $20 for it retail.

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Last edited by user1007; 12-17-2009 at 06:08 PM.
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