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Old 04-16-2013, 10:53 AM   #16
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


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I'd agree it has about as much merit as one coat coverage. Some paints in some colors do give excellent one coat coverage. As far as it being a marketing ploy - yes and no. You can either look at it like you simply don't always need a primer with quality paint over new drywall, in which case it's a bit of a ploy. Or you can look at it like you must always use a primer over new drywall, in which case it's not a ploy because 2 coats of finish paints qualifies. Sherwin Williams warrants Super Paint, for example, with 2 finish coats over bare drywall. And yes it often works very well.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, because I don't understand well enough what it is you're saying. It doesn't make much sense, either that or it does and you mistakenly posted here instead of the legal forum.
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Old 04-16-2013, 06:57 PM   #17
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


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I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, because I don't understand well enough what it is you're saying. It doesn't make much sense
Well, try reading a couple more times, and maybe it will sink in.

Or, read the TDS for, for example, Sherwin Williams Super Paint or Benjamin Moore Regal interior paints. Read the manufacturers directions and that should tell you what you need to know. One of them says "Paint and Primer in One" on the label, and the other doesn't. Yet the instructions are exactly the same - self priming on drywall.

Call it whatever you want - "self priming" or "no primer needed on drywall". Either way it amounts to the same thing.

Last edited by jeffnc; 04-16-2013 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:50 PM   #18
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


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Well, try reading a couple more times, and maybe it will sink in.

Or, read the TDS for, for example, Sherwin Williams Super Paint or Benjamin Moore Regal interior paints. Read the manufacturers directions and that should tell you what you need to know. One of them says "Paint and Primer in One" on the label, and the other doesn't. Yet the instructions are exactly the same - self priming on drywall.

Call it whatever you want - "self priming" or "no primer needed on drywall". Either way it amounts to the same thing.
No, no it doesn't. "Self priming" has been on the back of cans for as long as I can remember, and that's a long time, and paint and primer in one is a relatively new phenomenon. I've had many a discussion over a two decade span with technical people at the paint cos about what self priming means, and not one of them ever approached it as meaning paint and primer in one.

And as far as reading, I do plenty. I read every label of every product I use, bar none. And I glance over labels I've previously read to be certain nothing has changed. I read six online TDS' today alone in preparing a recommendation for an exterior masonry coating system. I suggest you do a little more reading and a lot less talking. Better yet, search the forum for these topics, as it's been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum, and I think the dredging of the topic back to the surface is a little tiring to those who lived through it.
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:12 PM   #19
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


I, for one, get really tired of seeing the same responses to this topic over and over and over (and over)... Really? Y'all think Sherwin, PPG, Ben Moore, Valspar, Behr, Glidden (now PPG) and s-o-o-o-o-o many other regional and national manufacturers are in collusion with each other just to fool an ignorant public?

These products are not a primer mixed in with a finish (all that would do is degrade the qualities and characteristics of both)...They are new formulations (technologies, if you will) of resins that actually have pretty good sealing properties - and (are you ready for this?) - pretty good stain blocking characteristics. These resins are offshoots, spin-offs, developments, derivatives of older gen products that have been engineered to do more things better. Make sense? The use of these products don't necessarily eliminate the need for primer, but daggone it, give the manufacturers some credit here - To say this is just "marketing BS" kinda shows a level of ignorance that we're all trying to avoid. New technologies are surfacing everyday, but it seems this one brings the most amount of anger and division.

In past posts, I have referenced articles from Rohm & Haas that has addressed the science of this very issue...P&P's, otherwise known as DTS (Direct to Surface), are coatings that have had some really interesting (and positive) performance results when compared to using standard primer then finish coat application.

The interesting thing is, you've all accepted Water-borne DTM (Direct to Metal) products, but refuse to accept that there may actually be a Direct to Bare Wood or Direct to Drywall product as well? C'mon...I suggest you all read more about break through technologies that affect our livelihoods with an open mind - or suffer the possibility that these "ignorant" consumers may actually be better informed than we are...Like it or not, these times they are a-changin'...
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:36 AM   #20
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


Ric, I appreciate your input. And I agree with evolving technologies, and I said as much a few weeks back when I came out of the closet about using Aura products over bare drywall, and have been for about a year and a half. I first used Behr eggshell P&P before I even joined this forum. And I said way, way back here that with the amount of resources available to Behr, I'm sure they could afford the best chemists and I was doubtful they would risk the liability of such a preposterous claim if it wasn't true. I'm a skeptic, but not totally. That said. . .

Do I think the claim is a sham? No. I would never put a product on a wall that I thought could fail. And I did a lot of homework before I did. Do I think the companies are in collusion? No. Collusion only works in the short term. Do I believe every product is as good as another? No. I can't see a 30-35 item containing the same chemistry as a 55-60 dollar product. Is the higher one overkill and the lower one more than enough to do the job? I can't say. Someone of your tech ease might know that but I don't. Do I think the paint cos are doing a disservice to consumers? Yes. Marketing a paint and primer in one the way they do conflates all primer requirements/needs into a jumble when they're are many different primers with very different missions. That said . . .

When I come to this forum, I'm not here to blaze trails nor bring homeowners, and lifelong painters, into the 21st century. There's a consensus here, and as it stands now it's primer then finish. To argue it only creates discord, confusion, and diverts us from what we're here to do, solve homeowner problems. That's regardless of why one might be anti. Does it hurt a homeowner to use primer? No. Do I think the average homeowner is capable of making a determination as to what primer is needed and when? No. The average homeowner thinks primer is primer is primer, and that could get them in trouble. To key on what Jeff said in equating self priming and p&p, that could get someone in trouble if they see that on a can and remember what Jeff said, that they're the same. They're not. In attempting to "educate" OPs, we may be inadvertently giving them bad or misleading information.

If these new generation finishes were universal problem solvers, I wouldn't have a problem. But they're not. Any anti P&P rhetoric one may have heard out of me, and there was, it was never from a disbelief in the possibility. (I posted this paint and primer article with permission from Paint and Decorating Retailer that has a somewhat pessimistic stance). My effort 1) was to avoid rocking the consensus, which does none of us any good. Witness the effort of the other trades to rock the consensus on different topics, it blows the whole forum up. 2) This stems from what I said earlier about inadvertently misleading posters. I go by what they tell me, period, and what I tell them from here based on that might be different were I on the job. With that uncertainty I prefer to turn to tried and true methods of finishing. Call me old fashioned, call me rigid, fine, but don't call me because what I told someone failed. We have a higher responsibility IMO than blazing trails. And in this little corner of my world I wanted to slow down the barreling freight train that was Paint and Primer in One, and give people who know practically nothing time to think about what they're getting into. You need to know the basics before you can dance fancy. If the HO's want a more progressive viewpoint, they can PM Jeffnc.
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Last edited by jsheridan; 04-17-2013 at 01:43 AM.
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:49 AM   #21
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


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Ric, I appreciate your input. And I agree with evolving technologies, and I said as much a few weeks back when I came out of the closet about using Aura products over bare drywall, and have been for about a year and a half. I first used Behr eggshell P&P before I even joined this forum. And I said way, way back here that with the amount of resources available to Behr, I'm sure they could afford the best chemists and I was doubtful they would risk the liability of such a preposterous claim if it wasn't true. I'm a skeptic, but not totally. That said. . .

Do I think the claim is a sham? No. I would never put a product on a wall that I thought could fail. And I did a lot of homework before I did. Do I think the companies are in collusion? No. Collusion only works in the short term. Do I believe every product is as good as another? No. I can't see a 30-35 item containing the same chemistry as a 55-60 dollar product. Is the higher one overkill and the lower one more than enough to do the job? I can't say. Someone of your tech ease might know that but I don't. Do I think the paint cos are doing a disservice to consumers? Yes. Marketing a paint and primer in one the way they do conflates all primer requirements/needs into a jumble when they're are many different primers with very different missions. That said . . .

When I come to this forum, I'm not here to blaze trails nor bring homeowners, and lifelong painters, into the 21st century. There's a consensus here, and as it stands now it's primer then finish. To argue it only creates discord, confusion, and diverts us from what we're here to do, solve homeowner problems. That's regardless of why one might be anti. Does it hurt a homeowner to use primer? No. Do I think the average homeowner is capable of making a determination as to what primer is needed and when? No. The average homeowner thinks primer is primer is primer, and that could get them in trouble. To key on what Jeff said in equating self priming and p&p, that could get someone in trouble if they see that on a can and remember what Jeff said, that they're the same. They're not. In attempting to "educate" OPs, we may be inadvertently giving them bad or misleading information.

If these new generation finishes were universal problem solvers, I wouldn't have a problem. But they're not. Any anti P&P rhetoric one may have heard out of me, and there was, it was never from a disbelief in the possibility. (I posted this paint and primer article with permission from Paint and Decorating Retailer that has a somewhat pessimistic stance). My effort 1) was to avoid rocking the consensus, which does none of us any good. Witness the effort of the other trades to rock the consensus on different topics, it blows the whole forum up. 2) This stems from what I said earlier about inadvertently misleading posters. I go by what they tell me, period, and what I tell them from here based on that might be different were I on the job. With that uncertainty I prefer to turn to tried and true methods of finishing. Call me old fashioned, call me rigid, fine, but don't call me because what I told someone failed. We have a higher responsibility IMO than blazing trails. And in this little corner of my world I wanted to slow down the barreling freight train that was Paint and Primer in One, and give people who know practically nothing time to think about what they're getting into. You need to know the basics before you can dance fancy. If the HO's want a more progressive viewpoint, they can PM Jeffnc.
You're right, Joe - these products are not problem solvers - they are step savers...and there is a difference. In my opinion, a prime app, followed by a finish app is still the best recommendation, but for some to argue the viability, or even actual existence, of these products is kind of non-sensical.

My point to all who want to believe that P&P's are (a) in the same league as the easter bunny, (b) a lie, (c) a marketing scam (or BS), really need to do some homework as to why so many manufacturers are now going this route.

It's also important to note that, just like DTM's have not replaced rust inhibiting primers - and architectural specs and corrosion management guidelines will always call for a prime first application, neither will P&P's replace their respective drywall, wood and universal primers. These products can easily and peacefully co-exist.

In any debatable topic such as this, it's important to not take extreme positions without some understanding of the reasons behind the claims of so many manufacturers.
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:58 AM   #22
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


Good Post Ric.

The funny thing is, I would never paint any metal without priming it first, because I have never gotten good results when doing so. The paint always goes blotchy, then runs. With metal you absolutely have to prime to get a "grippy" surface.

Im sure most of you have seen the finish peeling off metal in short order that was not primed.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:32 AM   #23
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


Jeff, you're comments show you really don't read my comments carefully. I use "paint and primer in one" in some instances, not all. I still use primer primarily. It's job specific. Read Jagans post, carefully, and think about what I said. People who know nothing about primers, the many varieties, and the many various conditions that call for it, will be lulled into a mistake. You give people too much credit, they don't nuance things. Primer is primer, right? It already has people thinking they need to prime over existing paint. Read Ric's post, he says something that I agree with "a prime app, followed by a finish app is still the best recommendation", and he agrees with you too.
Jeff, I'm basically agreeing with you, but registering my objection to its presentation, and expressing my concern that people will see it as carte blanche. You don't see where I agree with you and you don't address my concerns constructively, instead you attack me. Chrisn, I don't need to win, it's not about winning, it's about being rational and letting the consumer decide who's making more sense. Jeff, I don't know what your issues are, but the more I know you and see you in action the more I'm convinced that someone, somewhere has really done you wrong.
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Last edited by jsheridan; 04-17-2013 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:11 AM   #24
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


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Old 04-17-2013, 10:18 PM   #25
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


I recommend using a primer instead of paint and primer in one.
Good Luck!
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:42 PM   #26
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


If you look at the labels, priming with a specialty primer ( for covering staining, drastic color changes, metal) is recommended for these products. Ric states it very well from the technology standpoint, which has changed very much throughout the years. Painters have used commercial flats as a first coat over new drywall for quite some time. The marketing of the P&P products can be irresponsible, and it creates unreasonable expectations.

Most self-priming paints are very good quality products, although performance may vary.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:50 PM   #27
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Most self-priming paints are very good quality products, although performance may vary.
Just remember self-priming products are not the same as products claiming to be paint and primer in one!
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:51 PM   #28
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


What do you pros think of the paints that are not heavily advertised, that are often specified by Architects for commercial buildings? In NJ there was ConLux, which we used a lot and considered a great paint. In MD there is Duron, and McKormick. I have used Duron paint and found it to be excellent.

Its funny how none of these paints ever end up in Consumer Reports Tests

You guys would Know better than I what paints are best, but advertising is expensive, and it has to impact the cost of the paint, dont you think?
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Old 04-22-2013, 03:16 PM   #29
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


Certainly- and there are many great paints that are regional or less known.
ric is really the informed guy on this.
But giving advice here when you don't know where people are from or what they have accessible to them, you need to go for the most readily available.
.. For instance- I think Muralo makes fantastic paints- particularly their Ultra satin and semi.
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Old 04-22-2013, 03:42 PM   #30
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Primer alone first or Glidden Duo (primer+paint mix) on renovated/patched walls?


There are a number of great regional paint manufacturers on the West Coast and of course Kelly Moore is great stuff but only availed West of the Rockies. Several of the companies around Portland, OR make great products. In the Midwest, O'Leary in Michigan aced the top three slots ahead of Ben Moore, SW, Behr and all in recent industrial awards for semi-gloss.

http://www.olearypaint.com/company/n...zed_brand.html

http://www.olearypaint.com/documents...king_chart.pdf

Look for the pro painter trucks lining up for an indication of what is good in paint. You do not see them at HD! And it would have been impractical for me to have ordered paint out of Portland or Michigan on a regular basis so Ben Moore was my go to product line with SW second.

Consumer Reports has taken a lot of flack in recent years for the tests it devised for paint and for weighting cost to heavily into a quality equation.

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