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-   -   Please help me do a no-sand job on my cabinets (http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/please-help-me-do-no-sand-job-my-cabinets-177521/)

package81 04-18-2013 11:57 PM

Please help me do a no-sand job on my cabinets
 
Currently my cabinets have a light glaze on them. No paint or stain under the glaze. I want to paint them white without having to sand. I am going to spray for sure. I suck with a brush. I have a conventional and an HVLP gun. I want the smoothest best-bonded finish. I want to spray on a bonding primer. Then spray with paint. Here are my main questions: which bonding primer will spray the smoothest? Which paint will spray the smoothest? Also, Which gun should i use?

If you have time read further and see if my current plan seems ok. Tell me if i'm making any obvious mistakes:

1-Wash cabinets very well with high concentrate TSP and abbrasive sponge or steel wool.

2-Rinse cabinets very well.

3-With conventional or HVLP spray gun, spray cabinets with oil-based zinsser cover-stain. Should I thin the cover-stain with penetrol? Mineral spirits?

4- Next, spray cabinets with an oil-based white paint. 2 coats, if needed.

Obviously I'm going to take all measures to tape off my kitchen and not asphyxiate myself.

funfool 04-19-2013 12:29 AM

I just never saw a advantage over painted cabinets .... what is installed now?

package81 04-19-2013 12:34 AM

Currenty my cabinets are just glazed oak. No paint or stain. They have a shiney clear coat of something on them though. That is why i want to use a strong bonding primer.

Are you saying that you dont think i should paint them? If so, I wish that was an option. But the wife wants them painted white.

chrisn 04-19-2013 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by package81 (Post 1162462)
Currently my cabinets have a light glaze on them. No paint or stain under the glaze. I want to paint them white without having to sand. I am going to spray for sure. I suck with a brush. I have a conventional and an HVLP gun. I want the smoothest best-bonded finish. I want to spray on a bonding primer. Then spray with paint. Here are my main questions: which bonding primer will spray the smoothest? Which paint will spray the smoothest? Also, Which gun should i use?

If you have time read further and see if my current plan seems ok. Tell me if i'm making any obvious mistakes:

1-Wash cabinets very well with high concentrate TSP and abbrasive sponge or steel wool.

2-Rinse cabinets very well.

3-With conventional or HVLP spray gun, spray cabinets with oil-based zinsser cover-stain. Should I thin the cover-stain with penetrol? Mineral spirits?

4- Next, spray cabinets with an oil-based white paint. 2 coats, if needed.

Obviously I'm going to take all measures to tape off my kitchen and not asphyxiate myself.

1) do not use steel wool
2) very, very well
3) either one, very little
4) 2 coats minimum

I would highly recommend lightly sanding them after cleaning, did I say HIGHLY? It would take maybe 15 minutes, then make sure you get all the dust removed.

joecaption 04-19-2013 08:55 AM

Fastest way to have any paint job fail is to not do the prep work needed.
Cabinets get a lot of abuse.
Think it's not fun having to do this the first time, wait until it has to all be done over and sanded off to do it again.

user1007 04-19-2013 09:11 AM

Don't skip the sanding step. As mentioned, it will not take you long with fine grit and it will make a big difference. You cannot expect even the best of bonding primers to stick to a non-prepped surface.

Sanding sponges may be too coarse. Never steel wool. Brass wool from a woodworking place might work but fine grit paper will work better.

I would use a quality alkyd primer followed by two coats of finish.

Blondesense 04-19-2013 11:20 AM

Are you going to do them in place?
It's better to take the doors off (number them as you do) and do them flat.

Are you experienced with a paint sprayer?
If not, there is a learning curve here. You might get a better finish with a roller or brush.

package81 04-19-2013 12:33 PM

thanks for the responses. I respect your opinions on sanding. I realize that is the best way to prep. But I just can't do it. There are too many cabinets with too many nooks and crannies. Especially the stupid molding. The only reason i'm even trying to redo these cabinets was because I heard that you could do it without sanding. From reading other forums; a good washing and a good bonding primer will be strong enough to never notice the difference. Obviously, not as strong as a sanded job, but strong enough to never notice the difference. I was really hopeful that this was true.

So, since I'm 100% decided on NOT sanding (whether that comes back to bite me or not), any recommendations or a better bonding primer or paint? basically i'm looking for suggesstions on products that are easier to use for an amatuer. Primer and paint that is easier for an amateur to spray smoothly.

Yes I am planning on taking the doors off before spraying them.

I have experience with aerosol spray painting and I am pretty good at it. it's a natural talent I have. I can do a very smooth pattern. Much better than I can do with a brush. I was going to practice on the back side of the doors to learn how to use the HVLP gun. If I cannot get the hang of it or cannot dial in the gun right, then I will not commence with the project.

package81 04-19-2013 12:46 PM

if you guys are POSITIVE that the bonding primer is going to fail, then I may call off the project. If you guys think there is a chance that it will NOT fail, then I'm going to trust myself that I can do it right.
So basically you guys are telling me that the bonding primer is falsely advertised? It really doesn't stick to ALL surfaces? I am fully aware that this is not the right way to do a paint job. It is a hack. But hacks can work good enough. But if you guys are SURE that my paint is going to start peeling and cracking then I will call it off.

I think you guys are bothered by the fact that the purpose behind this hack is laziness. And therefore, you guys think that anybody who is using this technique is going to half-a$s the entire project. That is not true in my case. I will do this hack as cafeully and precise as I can. If I were to sand all of these cabinets, it would take me SO long and I probably wouldn't even be able to get into all of the crannies (which would be an even worse recipe for peeling right?).

I feel like spraying with the bonding primer would at least ensure entire coverage, which sanding might not.

ToolSeeker 04-19-2013 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by package81 (Post 1162477)
Currenty my cabinets are just glazed oak. No paint or stain. They have a shiney clear coat of something on them though. That is why i want to use a strong bonding primer.

Are you saying that you dont think i should paint them? If so, I wish that was an option. But the wife wants them painted white.

Keep cabinets get new wife.:thumbup:

chrisn 04-19-2013 05:49 PM

Zinnser 123

Faron79 04-19-2013 10:56 PM

Some important points here:

I work @ a higher profile store. NOT a big-box.
* The "Liquid Sandpapers" only TEMPORARILY tack-up a surface.
* Whatever you don't get painted in ~1/2 hr. HAS to be re-applied!!
* The worst part....those products contain high-levels of VOC's.
* Sooooooo...if you can't get something re-coated in time, you've exposed yourself (& the household!) to a noxious solvent...for NOTHING.
* And, it has to be done again!!
* I do all I can to TALK CUSTOMERS OUT OF THIS.
* For small/hobby projects...fine. For a busy kitchen...forget it....PLEASE!

Sanding literally creates a physical profile for primers to latch onto better.
* You can create some sanding-forms by whittling hard rubber blocks to match the contour of your trim edges.
* Having done that, it really doesn't take all that long!

Oil primer is fine, but I'd avoid it for the topcoats. White Oil-based paints yellow over time.
For a truly knockout finish, consider an FPE topcoat.
Also, Cabinet-Coat by Insl-X; ACE's Cabinet&Trim paint; and C2's new Whey-based Cab. paint are very good choices too.

>>> So...laziness has nothing to do with it. The product isn't falsely advertised either. It just isn't even CLOSE to the best way to do an important job like a kitchen.

>>> Final note: Sand....or forget the project.

Faron

jsheridan 04-20-2013 01:42 AM

From Zinsser:
Bulls-Eye 1-2-3 bonds to wood, plaster,
concrete, gloss enamels, hardboard, glass and tile . . .

. . . Bonds to glossy surfaces without scuff sanding

Scuff sanding is an insurance, and shouldn't be skipped. But you don't need to get into every little nook, cranny, and detail. Give the flats a once over and pay a little extra attention to the areas expecting the most use and abuse. The primer will do its job and you'll be fine. Bulls Eye 123 Plus is a more tenacious bonder if it's available in your area.

package81 04-20-2013 01:43 AM

Faron thx for the info. You sold me on the non-oil top coat. Dont want yellowing. Im fine with the top coat being a water-based material because ive read its ok to thin top coat material. Just not supposed to thin bonding primers (bottom coat) very much. Obviosly the reason thinning is such a must is because im spraying with a low end hvlp gun.

Im going to do some more research to see how long other peoples kitchens held up with this no sand technique. Some people are really swearing by it. Apparently it really bonds to any surface....even glossy. Yes the kitchen is busy, but the cabinet FINISH is not really busy. I mean the cabinets are opened and closed alot, but that doesnt really put alot of wear and tear on the finish. Just the hinges. Im going to put on good quality pads to soften the blow of the cabknets being closed hard.

As long as I use a protective sealing top coat, wont that keep the cover-stain coat locked up and safe from things that could compromise its bond?

You talked about deglossers only having a 30 min window. Crap! Does that include tsp? Because i just finished washing my cabinets with it and am now going to bed for the night. I figured that was a good plan so that they could dry. They were very wet after washing. They would take at least a couple hours to dry regardless so that would mean that it is a useless product because you would always miss the 30 min window. Hopefully you were talking about some other products, which im not using. Im just using the tsp to get all of the grime off. Not to degloss. I did read that it will reduce the sheen of some glosses. Which would be nice. And i dont think that would be subject to the 30 min window would it? Once the sheen is reduced, i would imagine its reduced forever.

package81 04-20-2013 01:54 AM

Jsheridan and crisn... thx for the suggestions and the peace of mind that my plan is not totally absurd. I will look into the bulls eye 123. Question: did you just suggest the 123 because of its better bonding properties? Or do you think it will spray better/smoother? I think what im looking for here is the lowest viscosity oil based bonding primer possible. That seems like the properties that make for good sprayability. That is why i decided on the cover stain. Maybe that was wrong? Is 123 less viscous thatn cover stain?

I also looked into bulls eye oil based bonding primer. I dont think its a 123 product. Any thoughts on that stuff? I dont think any of the 123 products are oil based. Am i wrong. I really want oil based for its better sprayability.


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