Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Painting

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-14-2008, 11:29 AM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 90
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Painting the "sunny sides" of the house


The sides of the house with high sun exposure had terrible paint deterioration. The more protected areas kept their finish much better.

Should we put an extra coat of paint, or a higher-quality paint, on the sunny sides of the house?

The SW guy recommended Resilience satin when we were trying to choose between SuperPaint and Duration. We had strong advice for both choices. Should I go back and get some Duration for the sunny sides, or enough for an extra layer of Resilience?

So far I haven't been able to find out anything about Resilience...hoping SW didn't steer us wrong. I got Duration for the trim work.

PS. I should have mentioned that our Sherwin-Williams store manager is really nice. They treat their customers well and show a concern for excellence. I would have to give our SW store a 5-star rating. (unless maybe only a 4.5 star rating because they don't have any of those white painter's hats that say "Sherwin Williams" on them...!)


Last edited by Beth777; 07-18-2008 at 11:45 AM.
Beth777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2008, 02:19 PM   #2
Tired, Cold, and Damp
 
slickshift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Cape Cod
Posts: 3,089
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Painting the "sunny sides" of the house


I'm not familiar with Resilience (it's rather new), but the only possible argument for SuperPaint over Duration I can think of would be "It's less expensive than Duration"

Go with Duration for the whole 9 yards

Be extra careful with the prep on those bad sides

slickshift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2008, 09:37 PM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,264
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Painting the "sunny sides" of the house


Beth:

Can you describe "terrible paint deterioration"?

Was it mostly cracking and peeling, or was it mostly chaulking and turning a milky white colour?
Nestor_Kelebay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2008, 10:12 PM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 90
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Painting the "sunny sides" of the house


We saw the worst cracking, peeling, and chalking with a milky white color on the areas that get the most sun. All of these problems, with some bare wood spots and some water damage. But the chalking is all over the house.

Have scraped, sanded, cleaned, caulked and spackled, sanded more, then very carefully applied a good coat of primer on that side. Have not yet given it any regular paint yet!

We also had to stop and do gable vent repair, which really slowed us down. It is very satisfying to see how pretty it looks now, with just the flat primer on much smoother wood, after all that prep work.

Forgot to say, the SW manager recommended the new Resilience paint mostly because of its faster drying time, which he says is very helpful for dodging all those afternoon thunderstorms that we tend to get in Virginia summertime. He says it's better than SuperPaint, and "almost" as good as Duration. The cost of the new paint is "almost" as high as Duration. Not like it would make a big difference in total cost.

Last edited by Beth777; 07-14-2008 at 10:17 PM. Reason: Forgot to say something. =)
Beth777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 12:23 AM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,264
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Painting the "sunny sides" of the house


If you're getting a lot of chaulking on your paint, it could be because of the titanium dioxide (white pigment) in it.

Titanium dioxide apparantly has a catalytic effect on the degradation of paint by chaulking due to exposure to UV light. So much so, in fact, that DuPont coats it's line of "TiPure" titanium dioxide pigments with a coating that helps reduce chaulking in exterior paints. However, much of the titanium dioxide in North American paints comes from offshore sources that don't do this.

Talk to your paint store manager and tell him that you're concerned that since your paint is a relatively light (?) colour, that the titanium dioxide is exacerbating the chaulking on your exterior paints.

Also, your paint store manager should know this, but latex paints and primers are NOT recommended over chaulked paint. The reason why is that both latex primers and latex paints develop a tension in the paint film as they cure. This tension can be sufficient to pull the latex primer (or latex paint) loose from the chaulked surface. What happens is that the primer or paint sticks well to the chaulked surface, but the powder it's sticking to isn't sticking well itself. As a result, your existing chaulked paint may not be cohesive enough to withstand the tension developed in a latex primer or paint film.

For chaulked paint surfaces, you really should be using an oil based primer and an oil based top coat. Oil based paints don't develop any tension in the paint film whatsoever as they cure.

So, if I wuz you'se, I'd ask the paint store guy if the white pigment in the paint he's going to sell me is titanium oxide or zinc oxide, and if he says it's titanium dioxide, as if it's DuPont's Ti-Pure titanium dioxide. If not, then that's likely to be the cause of the excessive chaulking. And painting over a chaulked surface with a latex primer or paint is likely to be the cause of the "terrible paint deterioration".

And, if the store manager knew you had a chaulking problem, why the #$%&@ did he sell you a latex primer and paint to put over it? Ask him that too!
Some paint companies, not all, will use zinc oxide as the white pigment in their exterior paints to avoid this problem. If Sherwin Williams is using
Nestor_Kelebay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 01:25 PM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 90
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Painting the "sunny sides" of the house


Nestor,

SW says they buy titanium dioxide from different sources. Says they use some Dupont Ti-Pure and some others as well. They don't know which of their paints contain the Ti-Pure and which do not! (must be another trade secret) They say they don't use zinc oxide.

We discussed the chaulking problem with the manager. He emphasized thoroughly cleaning off all chaulking before painting, and said either alkyd or latex primer and paint would be fine for it if we cleaned it thoroughly first. He didn't say why that matters, didn't tell us all of what you said...

His recommendation was that we spot-prime only the bare spots with alkyd primer for extra protection on those spots, then go over all of those oil-primed spots plus the whole house with latex primer. Then top it all off with Resilience or Duration.

If we cleaned the old paint thoroughly enough, will the latex primer stick and prevent future chaulking? I may be be just a tad upset if we have been misled...
Beth777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 03:57 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,264
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Painting the "sunny sides" of the house


I believe a big part of the chauking problem you are experiencing is the fact that you're using a lot of titanium dioxide in your paint, and the TiO2 being used is not treated in any way to prevent it for promoting chaulking.

I believe you should spot prime over the bare wood patches, and I would use an exterior alkyd primer to do that. However, I see absolutely NO POINT in priming over the whole house before painting. That just makes no sense to me at all. Did he tell you what priming over paint was supposed to accomplish?

I would use an alkyd primer on any bare wood, and use an alkyd paint on those areas where you've had bad chaulking (after cleaning the chaulking off). And, I would use a dead flat alkyd paint so that when it comes time to repaint, you won't have to "sand" to roughen the surface; it will already be rough enough for another coat to stick well with no more prep work than to remove spider webs and wipe the surface down with a damp Magic Eraser.

Where the paint is not chaulked or cracking and peeling, I see no reason to prime over it. I would just paint over it with the paint of your choice.

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 07-15-2008 at 04:00 PM.
Nestor_Kelebay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 09:44 PM   #8
Tired, Cold, and Damp
 
slickshift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Cape Cod
Posts: 3,089
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Painting the "sunny sides" of the house


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth777 View Post

SW says they buy titanium dioxide from different sources. Says they use some Dupont Ti-Pure and some others as well. They don't know which of their paints contain the Ti-Pure and which do not! (must be another trade secret) They say they don't use zinc oxide.

We discussed the chaulking problem with the manager. He emphasized thoroughly cleaning off all chaulking before painting, and said either alkyd or latex primer and paint would be fine for it if we cleaned it thoroughly first. He didn't say why that matters, didn't tell us all of what you said...

His recommendation was that we spot-prime only the bare spots with alkyd primer for extra protection on those spots, then go over all of those oil-primed spots plus the whole house with latex primer. Then top it all off with Resilience or Duration.

If we cleaned the old paint thoroughly enough, will the latex primer stick and prevent future chaulking? I may be be just a tad upset if we have been misled...
Your store manger's instructions are correct
Though most of us (professionals) leave out that extra spot prime of latex, and simply use the oil
He also has no clue which chemicals or minerals come from which source go into which batch of paint
Truthfully, it's not a secret...there is no realistic good reason for him to know that information, and the factory does not provide the information on the can

As your chalking is with an old coating, I'm even more at a loss to figure out what bearing it has
The old coating simply could have been of inferior quality

Regardless, rest assured that the top lines of SW paints are top quality coatings, regardless of where they get the ingredients
slickshift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 11:05 PM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,264
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Painting the "sunny sides" of the house


I did a little digging at DuPont Titanium Technologies web site, and I found this:
http://www2.dupont.com/Titanium_Tech...s_Brochure.pdf
It's a brochure available online that explains the optical theory of using titanium dioxide to promote good hide in paints, and it also talks about how titanium dioxide affects chaulking.

On Page 4, it says:
Most commercial grades of titanium dioxide have inorganic and in some cases organic surface treatments. Inorganic surface modifiers most often are precipitated coatings of alumina and silica, which are meticulously controlled for type, amount, and method of deposition.

These inorganic surface treatments provide improvements in one or more
important performance properties such as dispersibility in water and
in a range of organic liquids, hiding power efficiency, chalk resistance, and
resistance to discoloration by heat and/or photoreduction.

Organic surface treatments can enhance the dispersibility of the pigment in selected coatings systems. Numerous grades are produced with varying combinations of surface treatment to maximize value-in-use in a variety of coatings formulations.

What that says to me is that most producers of titanium dioxide pigments use some form of coating on their pigments, whether inorganic or organic to improve dispersion of the pigment particles or to improve chaulking resistance of the coatings they're used in. I think it's reasonable to assume that other manufacturers of titanium dioxide pigments can coat their products with silica just as well as DuPont can. So, in my view, it wouldn't really matter whether Sherwin Williams gets their titanium dioxide pigment from DuPont or anyone else, as long as the pigments have been appropriately treated to minimize the chaulking effect they have in the paint.

On page 15 of that brochure, it deals specifically with "weatherability", which is the ability of a paint to retain it's colour and gloss when exposed to the elements. The brochure gives an example of how both gloss and chaulking can be affected by using the wrong TiO2 pigment to formulate the paint.

On Page 17, it says:

The surface of the TiO2 pigment particle is, however, photochemically active and
can, in the presence of H2O and O2, promote degradation of the organic
binder at the pigment surface. This form of degradation can be controlled

through the application of inorganic oxide surface treatments, which act as
barriers between the TiO2 surface and the organic binder.


Which is what I was saying about DuPont coating their Ti-Pure line of titanium dioxide pigments with a coating to prevent them from acting as catalysts in paint chaulking. Figure 17 shows a micrograph (electron microscope photograph) of the silica coating on a TiO2 pigment.

Until now, I was under the impression that ONLY DuPont coated it's titanium dioxide pigments to reduce the chaulking effect TiO2 has on paint. According to DuPont itself, everyone selling TiO2 pigments for commercial use does. Sorry for the misinformation provided earlier. We all learn from each other.

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 07-15-2008 at 11:20 PM.
Nestor_Kelebay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2008, 12:30 AM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 90
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Painting the "sunny sides" of the house


Slickshift, thanks for the encouragement! The older paint was likely inferior quality. Hoping our new paint, applied with so much care, thanks to lots of good advice, is going to look and last much better!

Nestor, thanks for researching "the rest of the story"! There is much to be learned in the science of paint! Sounds like the chaulking problem is being addressed by better paint science.

We're trying to do this right, and learning so much at evey turn.
Beth777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2008, 01:25 PM   #11
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 90
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Painting the "sunny sides" of the house


Our Sherwin-Williams experience has been very good. Highly recommended. Excellent customer service. Great manager...I wish he were in everytime we shop! Excellent pointers given (important for us!). He helped us choose a safe extension ladder & came up with a competitive price. Helped estimate amount of paint needed. Patient, honest, kind to newbies. You don't find those qualities often enough in this world!

Also, to clarify, even though I don't think anyone would misunderstand...the reason that I suspect the old paint of being inferior has nothing to do with SW.

In appreciation here, you guys here have really helped make a difference for us!!! THANK YOU for your time and effort!!!

The first day I found this board, I learned enough to run FAST from the painters who gave free estimates here. In retrospect, they were willing to take advantage of our ignorance. It would have been a nightmare experience.

We were provided with a good list of reference phone numbers of happy little old ladies. He said we could "never" paint the house ourselves. Said only the front of the house needed caulking and sanding, to "make it look pretty". He gave "an offer you can't refuse". With a 10% discount for having a relative serving in the armed forces. (?)

Even with our learning curve, and even though it's going to take us a LOT LOT LOT of Saturdays to finish section-by-section, I think the quality of what's being done here ourselves is good! We are spending multiplied hours and are nowhere near done, because we want all sides of the house to "look pretty" for more than just one season! He said it didn't need any primer..."just one good coat of paint is all it needs...well, maybe 2 coats on that bad side"...and just to show appreciation, he'd put sealer on our driveway as a free bonus! And, yes, he definitely takes credit cards! But when he returned to push a contract, he said all I'd have to do would be run down to the bank and take out a cash advance for the downpayment...that's how all his cc customers pay...

THANKS for good, reliable help from someone who really needed it!

Beth777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Painting a new house Pops55 Painting 5 12-19-2007 03:19 PM
Complete AC installation in Old Capitol Hill Row House jacko10 HVAC 0 09-18-2007 06:42 PM
Painting exterior of house crebive Painting 2 05-27-2006 12:53 PM
Painting exterior wood house parasailing Painting 1 02-06-2006 02:24 PM
My dilemma: Painting exterior of house dvarga Painting 6 08-26-2005 10:23 AM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.